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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:32 am
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KC9SYJ wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
Yeah, I have heard the bogus claim before that the lower gain tubes drive the output tubes harder......strange. :roll:

As for the gain stages in the HRDlx, I just went by the TP voltage in at the grid vs the TP voltage out at the Plate. I can calculate the gain for an op-amp circuit, but for a tube circuit I have to measure. :oops:


And you beat me to it also,because I was going to ask how in the world could you drive power tubes harder with lower gain preamp tubes? I don't see how that is possible! :?: I find reading about electronics,...especially when you're dealing with tubes,...very interesting
whether you're dealing with guitar amps,or amateur radio gear. So much to learn about both ham radio and tube guitar amps,...and it's a LOT of fun. I'm beginning to get a better understanding of how tube amps operate,tube characteristics,etc. just from this site,my radio related books,and a two of my books on tube amps. Only book I don't have and need is an RCA Receiving Tube Manual! :) BTW,...where can a get a schematic for my HRD III amp? I'm curious to learn more about how that baby operates by tracing the signal path,etc.


Simple! Lower gain pre-tube means you have a cleaner, quieter sound. There for, you turn the volume up, which sends a hotter signal to the power tubes. And wah lah! You have power tube break up where before you where relying on preamp break up at lower volumes. This discussion has got convoluted with misinterpretation :lol:
Be careful listening to the narcissistic engineers on this page! Go find this book called "The Guitar Amp Handbook" by Dave Hunter! Here you'll gain a solid foundation on this topic and many more! good luck...


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:40 pm
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Location: Natural Bridge, Virginia
KC9SYJ wrote:
Only book I don't have and need is an RCA Receiving Tube Manual! :)


Didn't have access to this at work today.

Here you go:

http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/tube/man/rca30.pdf

Also, here are all the amp books I have studied. You might want to check some of them out depending on how deep you want to get.

If you want books that explain amps in simple terms, these are some good ones:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Amplifier- ... ap_title_0

http://www.amazon.com/How-Hot-Rod-Your- ... ap_title_0

http://www.amazon.com/The-Guitar-Amplif ... pd_sim_b_1


For more detail (and a lot of math!) I recommend these:

http://www.amazon.com/Circuit-Analysis- ... d_sim_b_39

http://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Circu ... pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Circu ... pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/075063 ... 04_s00_i00

http://www.amazon.com/Valve-Amplifiers- ... ier+design

http://www.amazon.com/Tubes-Circuits-Br ... pd_sim_b_4


Finally, just for fun:

http://www.amazon.com/Amped-Illustrated ... d_sim_b_17

http://www.amazon.com/The-Soul-Tone-Cel ... d_sim_b_14

Also, this site gives you several cool tube calculators as well as an analysis of the circuits of several popular amps:

http://ampbooks.com/

Finally, I use this tone stack calculator all the time when designing an amp:

http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/index.html

Be careful using this information because in the wrong hands, it could cause heads to explode. :wink: :lol:

And no, contrary to Internet lore, lower gain preamp tubes will not drive power tubes "harder".

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:58 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
KC9SYJ wrote:
Only book I don't have and need is an RCA Receiving Tube Manual! :)


Didn't have access to this at work today.

Here you go:

http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/tube/man/rca30.pdf

Also, here are all the amp books I have studied. You might want to check some of them out depending on how deep you want to get.

If you want books that explain amps in simple terms, these are some good ones:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Amplifier- ... ap_title_0

http://www.amazon.com/How-Hot-Rod-Your- ... ap_title_0

http://www.amazon.com/The-Guitar-Amplif ... pd_sim_b_1


For more detail (and a lot of math!) I recommend these:

http://www.amazon.com/Circuit-Analysis- ... d_sim_b_39

http://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Circu ... pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Circu ... pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/075063 ... 04_s00_i00

http://www.amazon.com/Valve-Amplifiers- ... ier+design

http://www.amazon.com/Tubes-Circuits-Br ... pd_sim_b_4


Finally, just for fun:

http://www.amazon.com/Amped-Illustrated ... d_sim_b_17

http://www.amazon.com/The-Soul-Tone-Cel ... d_sim_b_14

Also, this site gives you several cool tube calculators as well as an analysis of the circuits of several popular amps:

http://ampbooks.com/

Finally, I use this tone stack calculator all the time when designing an amp:

http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/index.html

Be careful using this information because in the wrong hands, it could cause heads to explode. :wink: :lol:

And no, contrary to Internet lore, lower gain preamp tubes will not drive power tubes "harder".


I just received 'The Guitar Amp Handbook" by Dave Hunter this week,and on Chapter two already! I'll check out those other ones you mentioned. I also have "The Soul Of Tone" by Tom Wheeler,...I'm about 1/4 way through that one!

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If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:02 pm
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KC9SYJ wrote:
I just received 'The Guitar Amp Handbook" by Dave Hunter this week,and on Chapter two already! I'll check out those other ones you mentioned. I also have "The Soul Of Tone" by Tom Wheeler,...I'm about 1/4 way through that one!


Dave Hunter is a good writer and easy read, but I have found numerous errors in several of his books.

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:23 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
KC9SYJ wrote:
I just received 'The Guitar Amp Handbook" by Dave Hunter this week,and on Chapter two already! I'll check out those other ones you mentioned. I also have "The Soul Of Tone" by Tom Wheeler,...I'm about 1/4 way through that one!


Dave Hunter is a good writer and easy read, but I have found numerous errors in several of his books.


This is my first book by Dave Hunter on the subject of amps. Anything I should pay special attention to in this book,Bill? I also have two of those other tube circuit books on my amazon.com wish list to buy here down the road for further study. (Who knows,it might even help me in my amateur radio studies to have these books on hand,especially the tube circuit books. I hold a General Class radio operator's license,BTW,...and getting ready to study for my Extra Class license very soon. Though you don't see much tube type radios anymore,they're still out there and some still in very nice shape. One of my radio buddies has a classic Hallicrafters SR(or SL)400 Cyclone III that is in great shape.)

_________________
If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:24 pm
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Location: Natural Bridge, Virginia
KC9SYJ wrote:
This is my first book by Dave Hunter on the subject of amps. Anything I should pay special attention to in this book,Bill? I also have two of those other tube circuit books on my amazon.com wish list to buy here down the road for further study. (Who knows,it might even help me in my amateur radio studies to have these books on hand,especially the tube circuit books. I hold a General Class radio operator's license,BTW,...and getting ready to study for my Extra Class license very soon. Though you don't see much tube type radios anymore,they're still out there and some still in very nice shape. One of my radio buddies has a classic Hallicrafters SR(or SL)400 Cyclone III that is in great shape.)


I can't think of anything special that really jumps out of this book. It is a good all around primer on all things related to tube amps, and guitar amps in general. It has good discussions on all the components of an amp (tubes, caps, transformers, etc.), what to look for when buying an amp, speakers and cabinets, etc. It is not highly technical and has no math in it. The descriptions of the different amps (59 Bassman, JTM45, etc.) is quite good. My favorite section are the interviews with the various amp designers, particularly the late Ken Fischer.

If you want a book that gets a little more technical (again, without a lot of math) and talks about amp mods (Fender only), get this one:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Hot-Rod-Your- ... ap_title_0

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:57 pm
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KC9SYJ wrote:
...Only book I don't have and need is an RCA Receiving Tube Manual! :)...


For PDF versions of just about any tube manuals, RCA and many others, go here:

http://www.tubebooks.org/tube_data.htm

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Por favor, disculpe mi español, no se llega a la práctica con mucha frecuencia.


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:02 pm
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1969spacecowboy wrote:
...Simple! Lower gain pre-tube means you have a cleaner, quieter sound. There for, you turn the volume up, which sends a hotter signal to the power tubes. And wah lah! You have power tube break up where before you where relying on preamp break up at lower volumes...


You really don't have a clue, do you?

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---> "The amp should be SWITCHED OFF AND UNPLUGGED before you do this!" <---

Por favor, disculpe mi español, no se llega a la práctica con mucha frecuencia.


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:26 pm
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Hallicrafter SR-400 Cyclone, eh? Vintage Ham gear. I know of a couple of guys in your neck of the woods (MI and IL) that are into 40-meters. Real old school stuff.

Is there much DXL these days? I have an old Japan Radio NRD-525. Crazy thing can pick up some knucklehead's 20 watt transmitter on a 25 sq mile island in the Caribbean. Where all those covert CIA transmitters were located. RTTY was fun in those days.

But I digress.... :lol:


http://alltransceiver.ru/wp-content/upl ... SR-400.jpg


http://radiopics.com/JRC/Photos/JRC%20NRD-525G.jpg


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:41 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
1969spacecowboy wrote:
...Simple! Lower gain pre-tube means you have a cleaner, quieter sound. There for, you turn the volume up, which sends a hotter signal to the power tubes. And wah lah! You have power tube break up where before you where relying on preamp break up at lower volumes...


You really don't have a clue, do you?

+1,000

I don't think he does have a clue,Shimmilou! There's NO WAY IN THE WORLD that can be right! That would be like him trying to say you can run a mismatched pair of 6L6 tubes in your power section and say you won't have distortion,...and not wreck an amplifier. (Would you believe that one of my fellow ham radio operators actually tried to get me to believe that? He told me that he would kiss my $@! if I were to put a 6L6 from one supplier in Cincinnati and a 6L6 from a supplier in Chicago in the power section of my amp and I wouldn't have distortion and another radio buddy told me that bias adjustment would not make any difference at all as long as the tubes are the same type. And these guys have degrees in electronics? :shock: I may not have a degree in electronics,but I feel I know JUST ENOUGH that you DON'T want to run a mismatched pair of power tubes in an amp like mine and not set the bias. And I sure as heck don't buy 1969spacecowboy's statements,either! Sorry,...my thoughts sometimes get ahead of my typing,...but just sayin!) I am basing what knowledge I do have based on youtube videos I have watched on this subject of tubes and what I have read in books so far. I am learning,though!

_________________
If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


Last edited by KC9SYJ on Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:42 pm
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:37 pm
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Location: Natural Bridge, Virginia
shimmilou wrote:
KC9SYJ wrote:
...Only book I don't have and need is an RCA Receiving Tube Manual! :)...


For PDF versions of just about any tube manuals, RCA and many others, go here:

http://www.tubebooks.org/tube_data.htm


The one I posted earlier came from here:

http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/tube/man/index.html

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:47 pm
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KC9SYJ,

Remember, Ham transmitters run in Class B or C output stages. Where a healthy portion of the tube's cycle is off. And they are not worried about crossover distortion.

A totally different beast running an output in Class AB.


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:52 pm
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KC9SYJ wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
1969spacecowboy wrote:
...Simple! Lower gain pre-tube means you have a cleaner, quieter sound. There for, you turn the volume up, which sends a hotter signal to the power tubes. And wah lah! You have power tube break up where before you where relying on preamp break up at lower volumes...


You really don't have a clue, do you?

+1,000

I don't think he does have a clue,Shimmilou! There's NO WAY IN THE WORLD that can be right! That would be like him trying to say you can run a mismatched pair of 6L6 tubes in your power section and say you won't have distortion,...and not wreck an amplifier. Would you believe that one of my fellow ham radio operators actually tried to get me to believe that? He told me that he would kiss my $@! if I were to put a 6L6 from one supplier in Cincinnati and a 6L6 from a supplier in Chicago in the power section of my amp and I wouldn't have distortion and another radio buddy told me that bias adjustment would not make any difference at all as long as the tubes are the same type. And these guys have degrees in electronics? :shock: I may not have a degree in electronics,but I feel I know JUST ENOUGH that you DON'T want to run a mismatched pair of power tubes in an amp like mine and not set the bias. And I sure as heck don't buy 1969spacecowboy's statements,either! Sorry,...my thoughts sometimes get ahead of my typing,...but just sayin!


Like I said earlier:

bluesky636 wrote:
If it take 10 volts to drive a power stage to full power with a 12AX7, it still takes 10 volts to drive the power stage to full power with a 5751 (or 12AT7, 12AY7, ....). You have to turn the lower gain stage up more to get that 10 volts, but it still takes 10 volts.


Actually, regarding your scenario with 6L6 tubes and bias, that's just what a lot of people did "back in the day". Many vintage amps did not have bias adjustments, and tubes were not sold in matched pairs for use in guitar amps. Of course, they were made better and built to tighter tolerances. You went down to Peoples Drug or your local radio/tv repair guy and bought a tube to replace the one that died. Maybe he tested them for you. Will you destroy your amp? Doubtful. Will the tubes last as long? Doubtful. Do you think Jimi Hendrix/Jimmy Page/Eric Clapton cared? Doubtful. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:57 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
1969spacecowboy wrote:
...Simple! Lower gain pre-tube means you have a cleaner, quieter sound. There for, you turn the volume up, which sends a hotter signal to the power tubes. And wah lah! You have power tube break up where before you where relying on preamp break up at lower volumes...


You really don't have a clue, do you?


I sure do know that if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord And Savior your screwed!

You continue to make comments about nothing! Your words are convoluted with lies. :lol:


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Post subject: Re: Tube Knowledge
Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:58 pm
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BMW2002Ti wrote:
KC9SYJ,

Remember, Ham transmitters run in Class B or C output stages. Where a healthy portion of the tube's cycle is off. And they are not worried about crossover distortion.

A totally different beast running an output in Class AB.


You are correct,...I seem to remember reading that somewhere in my studies for my radio operator's license about ham transmitters running in Class B or C output stages. Guitar amps running an output in Class AB operation as you mention are totally different beasts.

_________________
If it aint' broke,...don't fix it! I like to keep my amps and guitars factory original,...no mods necessary,...don't want them,...don't need them!

My gear as of now;
Standard Strat
Hot Rod Deluxe III amp
Champion 20 amp
'59 Bassman LTD Reissue


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