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Post subject: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:25 am
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Hi all, I am currently GAS'ing for a Fender '59 Bassman RI. Any word on whether these are prone to the same factory QC issues that other amps have been subject to of late?

Before I shell out the cabbage, I'd like to know that I'd be bringing home a reliable piece of gear.


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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:27 pm
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The design on the 59 bassman LTD is not exactly the same as the original 5F6A Bassman, prticularly in teh power supply. As far as build quality goes, it is probably average, maybe a little a little above average for a PCB based amp. Some people like the sound, others don't. Try one out and see what you think. If you do get one, pull the 12AX7 out of V1, throw it away and put in a 12AY7.

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:29 pm
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Just curious- Why the recommendation about the 12AY7? What is the difference between the two tubes?

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:24 pm
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lenrabinowitz wrote:
Just curious- Why the recommendation about the 12AY7? What is the difference between the two tubes?



The 12AY7 is a much lower gain tube, so the amp has a much cleaner sound this way...IIRC.

T2

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:03 pm
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T2Stratman wrote:
lenrabinowitz wrote:
Just curious- Why the recommendation about the 12AY7? What is the difference between the two tubes?



The 12AY7 is a much lower gain tube, so the amp has a much cleaner sound this way...IIRC.

T2


The 12AY7 was the tube originally used in the 5F6A Bassman in 1959/1960. A 12AX7 in V1 will result in a harsher preamp sound while the 12AY7 is smoother and somewhat "bluesier". An analysis of the 5F6A circuit design done by Richard Kuehnel and documented in his book "Circuit Analysis of a Legendary Tube Amplifier: The Fender Bassman 5F6-A, Third Edition" (http://www.amazon.com/Circuit-Analysis- ... 6A+Bassman) shows that the famous overdriven sound of a cranked 59 Bassman is really due to overdriving the power tubes while the preamp and PI stays clean. Using a 12AX7 in V1 upsets that balance and causes the preamp to overdrive more.

You can compare the schematics of the Reissue (This is the original Reissue, not the LTD. The main differences are the LTD has a tube rectifier and an adjustible bias pot.) and the original 5F6A.

http://ampwares.com/schematics/59_bassman_manual.pdf

http://ampwares.com/schematics/bassman_5f6a.pdf

I documented my build of a 5F6A clone here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=65668

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:39 pm
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I've got an LTD. I didn't find the need to change the preamp tube to an AY7 simply because this amp is ear-splitting loud by the time it gets into natural breakup. I've found it to be an excellent clean platform to build my tone on, using pedals for my dirt rather than the amp itself.

The one necessary mod (if you want to call it that) is to immediately re-bias the amp into a more pleasing range. From the factory they are set cold, and I found it difficult to dial in any kind of tone that didn't sound harsh. Once I fixed the bias it sounded much better.

Most recently, I got rid of the Jensen reissue P10R speakers. They're VERY harsh sounding at higher volumes (by the time the amp is breaking up). I put in a pair of Weber 10A125's and another pair of Weber 10F150's. The tone of this amp is incredible now!
(Thread here: http://forums.fender.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=82821)

In looking over the guts, it appears well built. PCB's in and of themselves are not a sign of poorer quality as there are many high end amps that use them. There's no ribbon cables, board mounted tube sockets, or plastic input jacks, so it's definitely a leap ahead of the Hot Rod series.

Honestly, I'd suggest getting one used if you can. They're around $800-$900 on the used market in excellent condition and it's a LOT of amp for that money. Excellent platform to build a rig around, however don't expect to be drowning in tube breakup bliss with an actual band unless you plan to put your amp about 100 ft away.

Here's a gut shot:
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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:08 pm
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Thanks for that all, your input is much appreciated. I wasn't aware that these weren't equipped stock with a 5F6A correct 12AY7. Also the points re. bias and stock speakers perhaps not being the best make total sense.

I will keep an eye out for a used LTD, but I'll also keep an eye out for a used Victoria 45410. Granted the Vic also comes with Jensen P10Rs, but that amp seems like it'd be 'doing it right' as I don't have the experience nor the knowhow to build one myself.


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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:59 pm
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I had one and really liked it.
I ran a 5U4GB rectifier and 5881's
Faster OD and sweet tone for sure !

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:47 pm
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Powdered Toast Man wrote:
I've got an LTD. I didn't find the need to change the preamp tube to an AY7 simply because this amp is ear-splitting loud by the time it gets into natural breakup. I've found it to be an excellent clean platform to build my tone on, using pedals for my dirt rather than the amp itself.


You really owe it to yourself to try a 12AY7 in V1. Electro-Harmonix makes a decent one for cheap if you want to experiment.

http://www.tubedepot.com/eh-12ay7.html

I use these in my 5F6A clone and my BDRI:

http://www.kcanostubes.com/content/nos-jan-ge-12ay7

They really do make a difference in tone, even at lower levels.

I've played my clone with both volumes on "12" and the guitar on "10" ..... for about 5 minutes. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:01 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
I've got an LTD. I didn't find the need to change the preamp tube to an AY7 simply because this amp is ear-splitting loud by the time it gets into natural breakup. I've found it to be an excellent clean platform to build my tone on, using pedals for my dirt rather than the amp itself.


You really owe it to yourself to try a 12AY7 in V1. Electro-Harmonix makes a decent one for cheap if you want to experiment.

http://www.tubedepot.com/eh-12ay7.html

I use these in my 5F6A clone and my BDRI:

http://www.kcanostubes.com/content/nos-jan-ge-12ay7

They really do make a difference in tone, even at lower levels.

I've played my clone with both volumes on "12" and the guitar on "10" ..... for about 5 minutes. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I've got one kicking around. I think it may be in V1 of my 5E3 right now, but I'll have to pull it and stick it in the Bassman and see how it sounds.

For me it was the speakers that made the biggest impact. The clean tone is nothing short of miraculous. For the money they command, it never stops surprising me that Victoria uses those Jensen RI's.

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:59 pm
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Powdered Toast Man wrote:
I've got one kicking around. I think it may be in V1 of my 5E3 right now, but I'll have to pull it and stick it in the Bassman and see how it sounds.


Please report back! :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:46 pm
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Powdered Toast Man wrote:
For the money they command, it never stops surprising me that Victoria uses those Jensen RI's.


+1

It seems nonsensical to go to such lengths to make a great amp, only to cheap out on the speakers. Guess the big companies know what they can get away with. Disappointing.


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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:33 pm
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All right, just finished jerking around with the AY7 in V1. IMHO, whether it's better or not depends on what you're looking for in terms of tone. It seemed to quiet the amp a bit - especially in the lower volume settings (4 and under) which would make sense since the AY7 is a lower gain tube. However, in the clean end of the pool, I'd have to go with the AX7. I found the AX7 had more chime and balls in the clean tone.

The AY7 definitely has an effect above 4 on the knob. Clean headroom is increased. While it's no longer a pristine clean tone, it's definitely cleaner than the AX7.

As for the higher end of the volume knob, it's a different overdriven tone for sure. Again, depends what you like. The AY7 will give you a meatier but lower gain sounding drive. The AX7 has more gain, but if you're looking for a fuzzier drive then that's the way you're going to want to go.

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:15 pm
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Powdered Toast Man wrote:
All right, just finished jerking around with the AY7 in V1. IMHO, whether it's better or not depends on what you're looking for in terms of tone. It seemed to quiet the amp a bit - especially in the lower volume settings (4 and under) which would make sense since the AY7 is a lower gain tube. However, in the clean end of the pool, I'd have to go with the AX7. I found the AX7 had more chime and balls in the clean tone.

The AY7 definitely has an effect above 4 on the knob. Clean headroom is increased. While it's no longer a pristine clean tone, it's definitely cleaner than the AX7.

As for the higher end of the volume knob, it's a different overdriven tone for sure. Again, depends what you like. The AY7 will give you a meatier but lower gain sounding drive. The AX7 has more gain, but if you're looking for a fuzzier drive then that's the way you're going to want to go.


Agree. It depends on what you like. The 12AY7 IS the sound of the 59 Bassman. Fender installed 12AX7s in the 90's and current LTD Reissue because !12AX7s were easier and cheaper to find. Now there are some new production 12AY7s available. The overdrive is different because with a 12AY7 the power amp overdrives before the preamp as explained in Richard Kuehnel's book, while with a 12AX7 the preamp will overdrive faster .

Did you run your comparison with the Normal and Bright channels jumpered together? If not, try it. With a 12AY7 in V1 and the channels jumpered I run both volumes at "6" and the tone is really sweet. :D

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Post subject: Re: Census on the '59 Bassman LTD RI?
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:24 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
All right, just finished jerking around with the AY7 in V1. IMHO, whether it's better or not depends on what you're looking for in terms of tone. It seemed to quiet the amp a bit - especially in the lower volume settings (4 and under) which would make sense since the AY7 is a lower gain tube. However, in the clean end of the pool, I'd have to go with the AX7. I found the AX7 had more chime and balls in the clean tone.

The AY7 definitely has an effect above 4 on the knob. Clean headroom is increased. While it's no longer a pristine clean tone, it's definitely cleaner than the AX7.

As for the higher end of the volume knob, it's a different overdriven tone for sure. Again, depends what you like. The AY7 will give you a meatier but lower gain sounding drive. The AX7 has more gain, but if you're looking for a fuzzier drive then that's the way you're going to want to go.


Agree. It depends on what you like. The 12AY7 IS the sound of the 59 Bassman. Fender installed 12AX7s in the 90's and current LTD Reissue because !12AX7s were easier and cheaper to find. Now there are some new production 12AY7s available. The overdrive is different because with a 12AY7 the power amp overdrives before the preamp as explained in Richard Kuehnel's book, while with a 12AX7 the preamp will overdrive faster .



Yep, it's the same with the new production 5E3 Deluxes as well. So far, the only new production AY7 I've seen is the EH 12AY7.

I didn't jumper at all. No doubt that the tones around 6 are awesome, however blunt force loud at that point. Fun, but useless in a practical sense (for me, anyway). My band would fire me if I tried to play that loud, and I get maybe an hour a week when the wife and baby are out of the house.

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