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Post subject: VK and ss22 tone report not empirical data
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:29 pm
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:mrgreen: Hey, well i have been posting some noise...today a good old toad showed up who builds amps of his own design that kill... the poor thang had no idea of the tone avalanche he was to experience...a little data gathering was done not much....and being an impatient toad i had to fire up the Frankenstein's...first the SS22

other posts have stuff i have done to mine but most of the testing has been pure data gathering on a load ( a mini Schnauzer covered in duck fat with a wire around it's tail with a nail tying it all to earth that is called a dummy load!)...yeah that's it

8.333 ohm exact...now the sick thing is i just have been stuffing jan's, new reissue stuff and taking readings...it's coming (findings) just gotta finish...anyway, i put a set of matched genalex 6v6 in the PA section and a variety of nos, old stock and new tubes up front...(i will give solid tube for tube data i have recorded..just have other stuff to do along with this)..OK

so a mix of jan 5751's, mullard RI AX7's etc....a new 6201 in the PI slot...now earlier i stated the speaker...eh??? i'd change it..cuz in a VK, marshal 4x12 greenback or a mesa cab celestion's and evm's (modified old mesa cab)...this thing KILLS


OK so we yanked the stock speaker plug...kicked it out of the way ..scooted my Red Jones cab (hardwood) with a Celestion Gold 12 in it...and let her rip prior to the warlord coming home from work...with silly engineers just laughing too much (blame it on WA state voters)

i fired up a hard tail Fullerton strat with van zandt's it spanked...tried it on both channels (on the bench with 5mvac coming in per the schematic we cranked the clean channel it stayed that way unless i goosed the tone from mid settings...yet in dynamic (analysis) with a "paged" les paul, and a esquire, jazzmaster, and p90 SG...it RIPPED...

that thing' s major issues are crap tubes, and a decent speaker that a gold blows to the weeds...and the loose internal connectors and stuff...but hey they have to make a dime, and the work for most folk but...damn luckty i'm not the QC manager...

bottom line at the moment as configured it kicks..but the 5751's sure drop the gain (if you are tied to a bedroom (been there))...5751's ala Stevie might be a thing to try...

NOW the VK....same with it although after studying the schematic and trying it with rca 7025's IMHO 7025's (preferred 7025's are fine also)...V1, 2, 4 in 5 12ax7 (7025) or 12AT7 for a bunch of loss the AT7 that is as a PI..should be noted for those cats that have the band giving you ugly looks...i have killer data on that..and have many tests to do..but almost done. then i format and put up but an AT7 in the PI will drop output a ton...(6201 is best of the AT7's)

so now the fun began...we had a nice mix of (pretested) old tubes...we weren't trying for a standard ..of relevancy..just stuffing cool tubes..so we started with 5881's Russian...when where i got them unknown...they put out a nice fat sine...so i set my scope and the ac voltmeter i had on the output jacks (across the Schnauzer) at -46 and change we were looking good..goosed the volume with the lights off...and no stresses noted to the tubes....

then i yanked the 5881's and put in a pair of genalex gold lion KT-66's..that nudge the trannys (i will isolate with some cool rubber impregnated RF screening i have left (purely as a buffer) may have to nudge the tube sockets a bit and WILL NEED holders...my toad friend and i did a few test a few years ago with power tubes and transformer proximity...there are issues to be explored....

so with all referenced to the 5881's nothing touched by us at all other than jamming in the 66's..we let them cook on stby while we sampled the best tobaccos Vancouver BC has to offer...then went back to look at the scope...i flipped the stby on after the set up...AWESOME..we knew immediately that this amp was going to sound good because..the sine was fat, CLEAN (and 66's have those nice big plats...bass - man)....no real noise (something to be said...since i live LOS to a electronic warfare simulation and submarine simulator ...RF spewing array or noise generation)...the sine looked great in spite of.....

so yanked that toad off the bench ran 10 feet in a hurry (while the patient was still warm)...and then Norm and my eyes met...and it meant one thing....screw the VK 2x12 cab...we are going straight 3x10.....with the amp upside down...cuz when a VK gets to rocking...you KNOW why Clapton and Richards and many others have them town send...cuz they are killers at about 8 up..killers...

well the lovely wife...who can turn into a demonic valley girl from Encino...if my amps wail...after 10...it wasn't ten so i put the VK at ten...i looked evilly into norms awe struck eyes and started with all the single coil guitars ...then came the byrdland with crap all dialed in for jazz, and mr atkins (tried the loop with an analog delay (worked fine))...BUT we had a brand new JJ 5751 just go wild (since 62 i have never seen a tube just go crazy...i couldn't see i was the tester norm was in back (a lightweight btw so he could only point and he looked like this :shock:

he LOOKIE..and my goodness ole V1 or is that V2A? was lit up and doing a light show spewing electrons in all the wrong places....i happened to have Jan 5751 in my pocket slapped that puppy i and the amp was quiet and sang the song of ....well you figure it out

tomorrow i am going to cook the VK to see if the filament windings hold up if so...the KT are staying...if not i call mercury......cuz i want KT's in there...would be a KILLER mod for a steel guitar player with a penchant for a C6th..neck... +the 2x12 cab

more soon..i'm nocturnal but not until i eat and nap my my way though prime time...outta here :shock: 8) :mrgreen:

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Post subject: Re: VK and ss22 tone report not empirical data
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:51 pm
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...rearding the SS22....are you having any of the "hissing" issues that have been discussed in the past? Nothing plugged in....all eq knobs at 0....reverb off....coming off of standby...hiiissssssssssssssssssssssssss.......?????


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Post subject: Re: VK and ss22 tone report not empirical data
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:16 am
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HISS :twisted: just got out of bed when i am deemed alive for the day i shall try to replicate :mrgreen: (i have not messed with the ground tie points on the SS22 yet...ie run all to the "bolt" etc..that i treat....the tranny and power ground tie to..now some will say not needed...well i have 6 digits of fine calibrated stuff that can detect ohmic variances between grounds...lots of folk just assume...well i'll bolt a ground to this end of the chassis and another a 'dat end of the chassis....well...in theory (or wagg'n) it seems to be OK..and in many cases yes... :wink:

but the 22 unlike the VK or an old twin and stuff and a lot of the newer amps with lots of switching (switch currents into the ground plane (quite common), and analog grounds, vrs chassis grounds, vrs digital grounds...all that stuff interacts with power and the power returns to EARTH...or if isolated then isolated common (cuz isolated common isn't EARTH/ground... :shock: (and the perfect EARTH model does not exist..cuz it works sort of like this..the power is generated somewhere and is referenced to "earth" cool...cuz at the hydro plant...might be a few ohms to earth....but ole rollo is on a freaking island surrounded by saltwater my power comes from grand coulee dam which is probably 150 miles or so from me..so my "earth" return to that...reference has to travel through conductive saltwater (or does it), rocks, gravel, under ground water..blah blah and the must pass through the trolls of Redmond :shock: :shock: ....to get back to the generation plant (but that's all theory poop)...so the problem of grounding schemes is and can be major...when many types of currents are being generated..in some of the digital gear you buy like a mustang or an Eleven rack...have tons of switching currents (hey when a bit flips in silicon making that awesome Marshall come out of a 6" speaker bet your booty that many switches are busting booty...just to deliver a microsecond of that tone....the crap gets stupid.

look at some of the newer fender or other manufacturers schematics and look at how they treat line in out and XLR balanced outs, look at some of the newer design input jacks they have back to back diodes and in some cases .001 or 220Pf caps in parallel between chassis and analog ground...etc.. because THEY know real world equipment, hacks trying to connect it, tune it, reversed or shorted cables to your balanced outs..GWAAAAK i could just..,..,. :evil: :evil: :evil: :cry:

when you start using mixed signal topologies (slow playing you demanding current (slower than the microcontroller and DSP's that have to respond to your tone request) and fast CPU, DSPs, MEMORY, drivers, logic that want your current and wanna trash your analog ground currents .... that crap happens and it happens quick...tie that into you eventide delay, and your fave 1969 stomp box and that old Cry baby you have had forever then you add a nice ole digital doo-dad of any kind into the loop and the noise chaos that could occur is horrendous to contemplate...

why in the heck do you think even YOUNG PROFESSIONAL sound guys are gray and balding...not from the groupies that's for sure cuz while you party they are trying to get your crap filled stadium rig to stop opening garage doors 3 miles from the stadium...and don't think i am kidding.....(Bradshaw should install a "special" button on the next switcher he makes for "Chaz"...that opens garage doors)

now hissing usually can go back to quality of parts say the loop for instance in a lot of amps use solid state, the design (using ideal the resistances for the amplifier configuration, impedance matches) ...NOTHING wrong with that if properly designed....

i love the tube snobs (i'm one) that gotta have the tube tone...then send it into a couple hundred chips on a million dollar studer board and through tons of processing..most all which is solid state of dubious nature...that s why my dude and i (he's in austin worry our designs...(audiophile stuff) popcorn noise...gotta have those carbon comp resistors for the good ole popcorn popp'n noise..thermal heating of these types of resistors causes hiss and popping, ground currents cause hiss, crappy tubes cause hiss......the trick is to track down the noise sources...many of the IC designs today benefit from not SPICE verification but by building it..and running it through the ringer use spice to tweak...or spice it then tweak it.

SO when i get coffee, feed the freaking man eater puppy, visit the room... and rise from the dead....i'll take a look...but i have done things on it prior ...so i am not working with a "virgin" 22....HOWEVER, i bought a CS tele and ss22 for my grodie roadie..he lives on a hill where roadies go to $@!&* about the abuses of the road...while playing nice stuff...i'll swap him mine for awhile then take his bone stock one and see....but that won't be for awhile - the Porsche is on jacks (seasons coming), and a transfer case in the garage...when one is done...i'll go get the amp...

but today i will try...i'll try with the mullards i have and genlex's tung sols...and with the GT-C's that came out of mine..i have GT-r's 12ax7's but mine shipped with C's and i have test NOS tubes..but i'll do it with what it came with (i need the mullards for the VK)

stay tuned...i will note this... reverb is way too sensitive to the pot...damn I learned in the studios from roger N that ya just wanna FEEL the reverb not hear it....unless that is the effect your after....ie Pipeline...etc for that you want a VK and a 64 jazzy...with that combination...Don Wilson can now retire.....i worshiped him when young...now come to find out he lives close to a friend up on the plateau..in issaquah...SOB i'm going to have to knock on his door and kiss his foot...man i got a few dates by playing walk don't run and such in the sand.....

anyway i'll look into it..i am trying to clear my bench because i have prototypes coming soon to ...debug test...toss whatever (my VG wife taught me that whatever crap) most hated word in the english language. you ask, VG or whatever?...i vote for both.

tubes sure beat the heck outta ..pop and shift lefts and FFFFFFF overflows and red lines under all your code......i prefer the smell of burning screen resistors @ 5:30am somewhere

BTW..the audiophile guys that insist on carbon comp...i build those toads with two watt resistors... spread the love around the 2 watter...runs cooler than a 1/4 watt CC resistor...and it gets way way stooopid from there....210K$$$ hand made single channel two tube preamps...people pay it! anyway...many things can cause hiss and other anomalies i have found that being proactive (cleaning and tensioning tube sockets, swapping bargain bin parts out for quality (first job i had in hollyweird was taking great out of the box gear to die for and yanking out all the signal path caps and stuffing in primo stuff and other crazy stuff like yanking carbon comps for carbon films only to be told do it again with metal films...and on and on.....(also did it for one of 'thoz billionaire guitar players also -enjoy the chaos :lol:

the first thing i would do is loose the stock tubes, second swap in tle2072's in the two tl072 spots (good chips but better now exist that were designed to replace and drop in (but not always) (i did they swapped fine and made the loop cleaner (i am making notes and putting a "report" together, i'd tightened all the spade quick release connectors on the boards, treat all the tube sockets, jacks, etc with deoxit D 5% ..and follow the advise of others... :mrgreen:

outta here it's now 6:30 and my coffee isn't started i have 15 mins left then my heart stops ...need coffee...the pro audio world is full of tweaks....werewolves my arse....just deal with an old beat up fart that hasn't had his pills or coffee (or med weed) this early...give me an M16...i'll settle the affie issue...me and all the old hurting non medicated geezers patrol..."rat patrol???...uh uh...geezer patrol way gnarlier :evil:

BTW both the REAL as in vintage Jensen alnico it killed on the sound test for the ss22 for the deluxe reverb meets modern amp...but the celestion gold won hands down for articulation, punch and ability to properly render 6 note jazzy chords of a fusion nature... when cranked Amino out and over (my old B-52 call sign) :wink:

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