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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:43 pm
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Tonight's mod is a simple one. No math and no fancy tube caclulators needed. Just a soldering iron. Tonight we're going to talk about removing the grid suppressor (grid stopper) resistors from in front of the power tube grids.

One of the theories about the tone of the 5F6A Bassman is the fact that in going from the 5F6 Bassman to the 5F6A Bassman, Fender removed the 1500 ohm grid stoppers from the power amp. The primary purpose of the grid stoppers is to prevent parasitic oscillations by rolling off extreme high frequencies (above the audio range) before they can be amplified by the power output tubes.

5F6 Bassman schematic:

Image

5F6A Bassman schematic:

Image

CAUTION!!! Tube amps contain high voltages that can be lethal. Be sure to check the power supply caps with your DVM prior to working on your amp and drain the caps if necessary. Make sure your amp is unplugged and never stick both hands inside a live amp.

All we're going to do tonight is replace two resistors wih wire jumpers and add a 47 pF capacitor.

The two grid stopper resistors are shown here in the BDRI schematic:

Image

R64 and R65 are located on the underside of the tube PCB, near the screen grid resistors on either side of the power tubes:

Image

Just heat up the leads on the top side of the PCB with your iron, remove the two resistors from below and replace with two short wire jumpers as shown here:

Image

I also added a 47 pF silver mica cap across the plate (pins 1 and 6) of the phase inverter as shown in the early Bassman schematics. I cannot find any direct reference to the cap in the literature I have, but I assume it aids in preventing parasitic oscillations by rolling off very high frequencies.

Image

That's it. Pretty easy. Our next mod will be to the tone stack to prevent muddiness in the bass when using humbucker equipped guitars. See you soon. :D

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:41 am
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More cool stuff! :)

Did you notice much difference in tone with the stoppers removed, at high or low volume?

BTW, I think that you are correct about the Plate to Plate cap on the PI.

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:33 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
More cool stuff! :)

Did you notice much difference in tone with the stoppers removed, at high or low volume?

BTW, I think that you are correct about the Plate to Plate cap on the PI.


I look at a guitar/guitar amp as a system so I plan on summarizing my impressions about tonal changes after all the mods are discussed. :wink: :D

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:14 pm
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Sorry for the delay in posting my tone stack mods. I have been sick for the last few days with a bad sinus and upper respiratory infection. Not what you want when trying to write a detailed post. Anyway, tonight we are going to talk about modding the BDRI tone stack to the same configuration as that of the 5F6A Bassman.

CAUTION!!! Tube amps contain high voltages that can be lethal. Be sure to check the power supply caps with your DVM prior to working on your amp and drain the caps if necessary. Make sure your amp is unplugged and never stick both hands inside a live amp.

The BDRI tone stack is identical to the current 1959 LTD Bassman Reissue with the exception that the Bassman Reissue uses a linear taper treble control and the BDRI uses an audio taper treble control.

Image

The components we are going to change are circled in the above schematic and are located as shown here:

Image

The end result is a tone stack that looks like this:

Image

C7 is a simple change from a 250 pF ceramic cap to a 250 pF silver mica cap which gives a little smoother high end.

C5 is replaced with a 0.022 mF Orange Drop cap (600 VDC rating). This change results in a bass respone that rolls off a bit quicker below 100 Hz than with the 0.1 mF cap. It helps keep the bass from getting too muddy when used with a humbucker pickup.

The final change is replacing the 100K ohm s l o p e resistor with a 56K ohm resistor. Reducing the value of the s l o p e resistor results in an increase in the upper bass/lower midrange response without affecting the lower bass or treble. Note that many Marshall amps use a 33K ohm s lo p e resistor for the midrange emphasis that those amps provide.

The effect on the amp's frequency response is shown here. All tone controls are set at 50%. The green curve is with the stock component values and the red curve represents the modified tone stack. The picture is not great, but you can clearly see the bass roll off and midrange boost (about 3 dB from 200 Hz to 700 Hz) of the modified tone stack.

Image

The modified PCB is shown here:

Image

Note that I did not change C6, the midrange cap. It is already the desired value and its location makes squeezing in a 600 VDC orange Drop a little tricky. :lol:

We will wrap things up in the next couple of days by reviewing the total impact of the mods on the sound of the BDRI and look at a couple of mods I am considering but haven't decided to do. See you soon.

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:30 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
OK. As I promised last night, here is my adventure swapping tubes around in my BDRI. Note that I am not going to recommend specific tube brands, just identify what I have been using. Tube brands are a very personal thing and everyone has their favorites. I like JJ tubes and use them in all three of my tube amps, but we're primarily going to talk about tube types. If you want more information about JJ tubes for the BDRI, check out

https://www.eurotubes.com/cart/index.ph ... ory_id=122

My BDRI came equipped with Groove Tubes in the following configuration:

V1 = 12AX7
V2 = 12AX7
V3 = 12AX7 (Balanced for PI use)
V4/V5 = 6L6R (Actually SOVTEK 5881WXTs).

The tubes sounded OK, but a couple things I noticed were the highs were somewhat piercing and the clean sound was kind of thin and harsh. I play (or at least try to play) Blues and prefer a thicker, warmer sound. The drive channel I did not like at all (I currently use a Full Tone FD-2M through the clean channel for overdrive).

The first thing I did was learn about biasing the amp. After doing some research, I learned that Fender has a tendency to bias their amps pretty cold, primarily to extend tube life. The Fender spec for the BDRI is 60 mV at the bias test point with a plate voltage of about 430 VDC. I learned that this equates to an idle power of about 12 watts. I have read, but not confirmed that the stock power tubes are only rated at 25 watts. This would translate to a bias setting of about 48% max plate dissipation. Way cold! If the stock tubes were 30 watts, they would be even colder at that setting. Anyway, I tried increasing the bias voltage at the test point to 70, then 75, and finally 80 mV. The amp probably sounded best at about 75 mV. What I didn't realize at the time was that you also have to measure the plate voltage as it will decrease as the bias is increased and vice versa. Oh, well. Nothing blew up. Yet.

Still not happy, I decided to change tubes.

My first crack at different tubes was the JJ "Blues Option" from Eurotubes. That set consists of:

V1 = 12AX7
V2 = 12AT7
V3 = 12AX7 (Balanced for PI use)
V4/V5 = 6L6GC.

12AT7? Now I had to learn more about different "gain factors" for preamp tubes. Turns out a 12AX7 has a gain factor of "100" and a 12AT7 has a gain factor of "60". Here's a good explanation of gain factor:

http://thetubestore.com/gainfactor.html

So, what this all means is that the amp now has a little less gain from input to output. It will still play plenty loud, you just have to turn it up more or hit it with a bigger input. How did it sound? Pretty good. I also learned that the JJ 6L6GCs could be biased hotter for a thicker, more driven tone. By this time I learned that you had to measure plate voltage too. So, I set out to increase my bias when things blew up.

Well, they didn't really "blow up", but there were a lot of sparks and a small fire. :shock:

While I was measureing the plate voltage with my DVM on pin 3 of V5, the probe slipped and momentarily connected pins 3 and 2 (the heater). There was a big spark and a tiny fire on the PCB. Naturally I jumped back, pulled the probe out, blew out the fire, and turned off the power. There was a small charred area on the PCB between the two pins. How do I clean that up? Well, I took my electric toothbrush, and old brush attachment dipped in alcohol, and scrubbed the charred spot. It actually cleaned up quite nicely. There is a small depression where the fire burned the PCB, but very little residue. Amazingly, there was no damage and everything worked afterwards. I never told my wife what happened. :wink:

Following that episode, I invested in a bias probe:

http://www.amp-head.com/product_info.ph ... ucts_id=70

Now I could safely bias the amp to my heart's content.

The amp was sounding pretty good, but there was one issue I had that I had been reading about others complaining about. That was the fact that volume on the clean channel jumps significantly between "1" and "3". The common fix is to suggest replacing the volume control with an audio taper pot. That is wrong, by the way, as the clean volume control is already an audio taper pot. My research led me to believe that the problem was too much gain in the preamp stage. What to do? :idea: Swap the 12AT7 from V2 with the 12AX7 in V1. So now my tube configuration was:

V1 = 12AT7
V2 = 12AX7
V3 = 12AX7 (Balanced for PI use)
V4/V5 = 6L6GC.

Hey. That works! The volume didn't jump as much and you had to turn the clean volume up a little higher to get things loud like before. But it didn't sound good. With the original configuration, the clean channel was a little thicker sounding. This setup sounded too thin, almost as bad as the original tube set did. So I changed things back to the origninal JJ setup and searched some more.

I then discovered NOS tubes and the 5751.

I buy all of my NOS tubes from here:

https://www.kcanostubes.com/

The owner, Mike K is a nice guy (I got to meet him) and lives only about 20 minutes from me.

Anyway, after reading about SRV and others using a 5751 in V1 to bring the gain down a little I bought a couple. The 5751 has a gain factor of about "70" a little more than the 12AT7 but still less than the 12AX7. And the sound? Fantastic. Warm and thicker with no harshness. But the amp was still a little too loud for home, so I decided to try a balanced 12AT7 in the PI like Fender uses in some of their other amps. So this configuration was:

V1 = 5751
V2 = 12AX7
V3 = 12AT7 (Balanced for PI use)
V4/V5 = 6L6GC.

The 12AT7 in the PI position seemed to tighten up the bass a bit. Volume was now at a more resonable level for home use (but still capable of being quite loud), and the clean channel voume control was, well, more controllable. :lol: The amp sounded great.

But could it sound better? :?:

By this time I had learned about the real "tweed" amps from the 50's. Hey, the BDRI looks like a tweed amp. Can it be made to sound like one? Well, no. But I did learn that several tweed amps used a 12AY7 (gain factor of about 40 - 45) in V1. Why not. First I tried a EH 12AY7. I was not impressed. Then I said to myself "The 5751 is an NOS JAN tube. Maybe an NOS JAN 12AY7 would sound better". So, back to Mike K I went for some NOS JAN 12AY7s. Now my amp looked like this:

V1 = 12AY7
V2 = 12AX7
V3 = 12AX7
V4/V5 = 6L6GC

I have found sonic heaven. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Well, that's a little bit of an exageration, but the amp did sound darn good. Oh, I briefly tried a 12AT7 in V3 but that made the amp too quiet for me. Overall loudness is about the same as the previous configuration but the clean volume had an even better sweep than the 5751 provided. So, that is my final tube configuration. Does it sound better then the 5751/12AX7/12AT7 combination? Its a bit of a toss up. Both are very smooth and thick sounding. Very nice cleans and capable of a nice "Bluesy" tone. I think it would boil down to personal taste, but you can't go wrong with either combination in this amp.

A couple of things to note. Most of what I have talked about was the effect on the clean channel. Using lower gain tubes in V1 or V2 will reduce the amount of gain available from the drive channel. You can still get a bit of drive, but you have to turn the drive volume up higher. Some may like it, or not. Another personal taste thing. I don't use the drive channel myself as mentioned previously. Also during this time I was experimenting with biasing the power tubes. That will be a separate subject, because I discovered some very unusual things about the bias circuit in my amp.

Tomorrow night: "Speak up. I can't hear you". Yes, we'll talk about speakers for the BDRI. :lol:


Hey man, very nice thread! Lots of great knowledge. I have one question though. When you changed the tubes, would you say that the drop in volume made it more bedroom friendly, or is it just small changes? Yuo see, I've really been GASing for a BdRi, but at 40 watts it's maybe a tad to much. For bedroom application the BlJr would be a better choice, but I want it in tweed, haha :lol:

Cheers,
Johan

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:40 pm
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Jooiie wrote:
Hey man, very nice thread! Lots of great knowledge. I have one question though. When you changed the tubes, would you say that the drop in volume made it more bedroom friendly, or is it just small changes? Yuo see, I've really been GASing for a BdRi, but at 40 watts it's maybe a tad to much. For bedroom application the BlJr would be a better choice, but I want it in tweed, haha :lol:

Cheers,
Johan


Thanks.

The maximum loudness of the amp has not changed. What has changed is the overall gain of the amp. This allows you to turn the volume knobs up higher to get the same loudness as achieved with the stock tubes at a lower volume setting. For example, the amp can now be played at "6" on the clean volume while with the stock tubes the same loudness level was obtained at 3 or 4. The lower gain tubes allow one to operate the volume control in a more controllable manner wihout large jumps in volume. At "12" the amp is still very loud. :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:40 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
Jooiie wrote:
Hey man, very nice thread! Lots of great knowledge. I have one question though. When you changed the tubes, would you say that the drop in volume made it more bedroom friendly, or is it just small changes? Yuo see, I've really been GASing for a BdRi, but at 40 watts it's maybe a tad to much. For bedroom application the BlJr would be a better choice, but I want it in tweed, haha :lol:

Cheers,
Johan


Thanks.

The maximum loudness of the amp has not changed. What has changed is the overall gain of the amp. This allows you to turn the volume knobs up higher to get the same loudness as achieved with the stock tubes at a lower volume setting. For example, the amp can now be played at "6" on the clean volume while with the stock tubes the same loudness level was obtained at 3 or 4. The lower gain tubes allow one to operate the volume control in a more controllable manner wihout large jumps in volume. At "12" the amp is still very loud. :lol:


I see. Let's rephrase the question then. Will it be easier dialing in a bedroom sound? From what I've understood the volume knob has been very sensitive around the lower areas?

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:47 pm
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Jooiie wrote:
I see. Let's rephrase the question then. Will it be easier dialing in a bedroom sound? From what I've understood the volume knob has been very sensitive around the lower areas?


Yes. Like I said, if you were playing with the clean volume set to "4" with the stock tubes, you may now have to tune the volume up to "6" to get the same loudness level with lower gain tubes. With lower gain tubes, "4" will now be quieter than "4" was with the stock tubes. It will be easier to dial in a quieter sound.

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:00 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
Jooiie wrote:
I see. Let's rephrase the question then. Will it be easier dialing in a bedroom sound? From what I've understood the volume knob has been very sensitive around the lower areas?


Yes. Like I said, if you were playing with the clean volume set to "4" with the stock tubes, you may now have to tune the volume up to "6" to get the same loudness level with lower gain tubes. With lower gain tubes, "4" will now be quieter than "4" was with the stock tubes. It will be easier to dial in a quieter sound.


Fantastic. Thanks once again for this amazing thread! :D

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:28 pm
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Jooiie wrote:
Fantastic. Thanks once again for this amazing thread! :D


You're welcome. :D

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:17 pm
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So, now that I have made all these mods to my BDRI, does it really sound like my 5F6A Bassman clone?

Well, .... no.

Does it sound better than a stock BDRI?

In my opinion, .... yes.

There are two major differences between my modded BDRI and my 5F6A Bassman clone that prevent them from sounding like each other. First, the BDRI has one 12" speaker and my 5F6A Bassman clone has four 10" speakers. The cone surface area of the BDRI is 113 square inches. The cone surface area of the 5F6A Bassman clone is a whopping 314 square inches. Just based on the cone surface area, the 5F6A Bassman clone will produce a louder bass tone than the BDRI. Not deeper (the frequency responses and bass rolloff of the tone controls are essentially the same), but definitely louder. The second difference is that the 5F6A Bassman clone has a finger jointed solid pine cabinet and pine baffle board. The BDRI has a (I believe) MDF cabinet and baffle board. The 5F6A Bassman clone cabinet and baffle board is very resonant. The BDRI cabinet and baffle board is .... not. However, the basic sound of the BDRI is very tight and solid with no vibrations or ringing.

So what does the modded BDRI sound like? Unfortunately, I don't have any before and after audio samples. I will try and get an after audio sample posted in the near future (Just remember that I am a better amp tech than I am a guitar player. :lol: ). Lacking an audio sample, here are my impressions of the modded BDRI amp tone.

1. With the lower gain tubes installed, the clean volume is much easier to control below "6" on the knob. Although the shape of the volume pot taper (its an audio taper) is not changed, you have to turn the amp up higher to get the same output level that you did with the stock tubes at a lower setting of the volume control. I don't use the drive channel, but the same thing is true there. You have to turn the drive volume control up higher with the lower gain tubes to get the same level of preamp overdrive as you did with the stock preamp tubes. The master volume is really not affected.

2. The speaker change is probably the most bang for your buck and easiest mod to the amp to change the overall tone of the BDRI. The Eminence Cannabis Rex is a much smoother sounding speaker. In my opinion, the CR has a more solid bass, a bit more midrange, and a smoother high end than the stock speaker. Want a brighter sound with less mids? A different speaker will get you there. But for Blues, I think the CR or something similar is perfect.

3. The tone stack mods are the next most noticable change to the amp. Just changing the bass cap from 0.1 mF to 0.022 mF will tighten up the bass considerably with less bloat and mud, particularly with a humbucker equipped guitar. changing the s l o p e resistor to a smaller value will give a little more punch to the mids, particularly with a single coil guitar. The mids still stay nice and clean with a humbucker. I think the slight mid increase helps provide a more "tweed-like" tone compared to the scooped mids of a Blackface amp. The change from a ceramic cap to a silver mica cap for the treble is very subtle but does seem to make the high end less harsh in combination with the Cannabis Rex speaker.

4. The reverb mod is also very subtle and may not be to everyone's taste. I prefer it myself.

5. The other mods (changing the bias supply resistor, PI plate resistors, and removing the power tube grid stopper resistors) don't seem to change the tone that much. However, in conjunction with changing the feedback resistor value, I think the overall performance of the PI/power stage is more in line with the 5F6A Bassman design.

6. In an overall comparison with my 5F6A clone, I would say that the upper mids and highs sound very similar. The lower mids and bass of the two amps are also similar except for the extra resonance provided by the 5F6A Bassmans clone's pine cabinet. Both are nice and tight, but the 5F6A Bassman clone seems a bit "livelier" in the lower end. I should also mention that, even though I have not weighed the two amps, the 5F6A Bassman clone feels lighter than the BDRI.

That about sums it up. Were the mods worth it? I think so. I use the BDRI with my PAF-type humbucker equipped guitars and my 5F6A Bassman clone with my stacked noiseless equiped Fender. I think their sounds nicely compliment each other. Also, either type guitar sounds good though either amp with very minor tone control changes.

Next, I'll talk about a few other mods I have considered doing but haven't made up my mind to do yet. Stay tuned for the final chapter in this little saga. :D

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:02 am
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I'm digging the story mucho..

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:29 am
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Bluesky, a most excellent thread. I love these types of posts, as they not only give you good info, but the logic behind the mods and the results. I've also noticed that speakers and tone stack changes help many new amps. Quality coupling caps and a good speaker can really change the dynamics of an amp to a more consistent tone.

One other thing I've done to nearly every re-issued line (DRRI and TRRI) I've worked on... replace the power filter caps with good ones. This can help the bass and transients, a lot. Esp in those amps with very cheap, off-shore 'lytics.

Keep up the great work. And a good lesson on how to properly document modifications to units.

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:06 am
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Thanks, guys. More to come tonight.

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Post subject: Re: Modifications To The Fender Blues Deluxe Reissue Amp
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:14 am
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Highly recommend the Eminence GB 128 for these amps, my OD and clean channel are much more usable now wow! cant believe the stock was that bad:( I can now use the bright switch and the higher output jack also. Also the C Rex is a favorite also.


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