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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:39 am
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No, I have done so much soldering in my life that I can recognise burned flux from melted coating. I think that the board was coated after the wave soldering, then shipped somewhere without the bulkier components to be assembled, and the coating was not dissolved before doing new soldering. Now do these not-so-good-looking solder joints contribute to the noise problem? I doubt it, but well, I'm still investigating so I take everything (I can) into account...

Dirk


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:49 pm
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OK, it wouldn't hurt to suck the questionable solder joints dry and redo them. But, you've isolated the problem to the V5 circuit, are any of these poor looking joints associated with V5? Poor connections could contribute to noise. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:24 am
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Hi all

I had promised to follow up, so that this would not not be one more "problem not solved" thread. It's been a while and I didn't work much on the issues, having lots of other things to do in life. But recently I bought a booster pedal, a boutique Bullit Booster Fat Vintage from VL Effects, and using this pedal made the whole insert loop treble bleed issue come up again. I use fx in the loop (and Eventide TimeFactor) so I cannot do without the loop. The treble bleed adds a "layer" of treble on top of the original signal, that was already quite unpleasant (even at high levels), the return level knob was pretty much useless in any setting except full CCW, otherwise it added a truckload of background noise, and on top of that to achieve the same levels between the fx loop on and off settings, I needed to set the send level to 3 O'Clock which leaded to overloading the Eventide at times.

Adding the booster did really really add a LOT of treble bleed, so that the FX loop became quite unusable really. The superimposed treble component made the sound just not OK. I had noticed this, I just could get the sound right with the loop engaged, and without the loop, the amp was just too loud for most occasions.

So to make a long story short, I decided to remove the cathode bypass cap C36 from V5-A, and the result was immediately positive: this lowered the gain from the fx loop recovery stage substantially (6dB or so) so that I could set the return level know to 12 O'Clock, resulting in a substantial increase in the "treble bleed-to-original signal" level. (The treble bleed level being unaffected by the return pot position, I probed it, it's not present at the pot at all). Unity gain is now with both send and return levels at 12 O'clock instead of send at 3O'Clock and return at full CCW.

Sound doesn't seem to be affected. Switching back and forth for the life of me I can't hear the difference.

So after a while, I decided to clip C38 as well at V5-B. Indeed, I got what I expected: less gain, sound unaffected, less hiss. No need to use the FX loop to tame the very high output level of the amp anymore, thus preserving the bleed-to-signal ratio at a very comfortable level, meaning the bleed doesn't affect the direct sound anymore. I can now use the clean channel beyond 1 without shattering my ears, get some pleasant breaking up at settings beyond 4 as well.The original output power of the amp is preserved, I just can use the whole range of volume settings.

I also did some additional stuff like substituting the green wires that go from the PCB to the V5 grid with shielded coax; remove some unneccesary switcheroo stuff that needed long DC runs (through coax cables, but well, less we have of these, the better it is).

I will put those bypass caps on switches so that I can switch them in easaly just in case (amp off, of course, because switching them in "live", thus uncharged, will lead to a huge surge in current which is not OK).

So basically that is the end of the issue as far as I am concerned. The amp is now pretty usable, pretty quiet, great sound (still experimenting with different tubes, I put a Mullard CV4024 in V2 which is pretty cool, brought the clean channel level a bit down as well).

Of all this experimentations, the most important achievement IMHO is the fact that I found a way to workaround the treble bleed issue in the fx loop. That one had become a real showstopper for me, because of this superposed trebly/ice-picky component, while I needed the effects loop to get the amp to play at club/rehearsal levels as many SS users do.

So that was it, I promised not to leave an orphan tread, hope this might be useful to someone. Maybe it's not the right way to do things, but it works for me, if someone has ideas to improve on this, feel free, I will not be offended.

Thank you for your attention,
Cheers
Dirk


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:47 pm
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Brilliant thread, awesome reading, thanks for taking such effort and sharing. I am glad you seem to have got to the bottom of your issues.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:54 am
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Thanks.... I'm glad I finally got it right (for my taste, that is). BTW, I mentoned that I put a Mullard CV4024 in V2, but after some more fiddling around I found that was not the right place to put it, but as a reverb driver it's brilliant. I tried it in V6 (PI) but that didn't sound right to my ears, too much attack, less sustain. I finished up with a GE JAN 5751 in V1 and like it very much. The vibrolux voicing really shines (remember I clipped C7!), and the burn channel reacts very nicely as well, crunchy and all. It works great with my germanium booster pedal. I will definitely stick with that one.

I'm amazed how sensible the tube assembly is. It's not just about changing 1 tube, it's about the chain of them. A little bit less gain here, a bit more there, subtle changes in frequency responce and dynamics, all this add up in the end to make a serious difference, maybe less to the ears of the audience than to the sensation of the player.

I'm also very fond of Sovtek 12AX7WA, in certain positions. These tubes are not considered much on the internet forums, I would indeed not use these in critical tone-shaping positions but after lots of comparing, I find they do better than the stock GT-Fender-Sovtek 12AX7WC. A little less gain, both clearer and smoother than the WC's. Great in V2, V3 (!), V4.

I also have some EH 12AX7's, but never liked them in the main signal path. But I found that in the reverb recovery stage they really clear up the reverb, adding a cool shimmer. With the Mullard CV 4024 as the driver it's a nice combination, much better than with the stock tubes.

I have yet to find the perfect Phase Inverter. I kept the stock Fender GT 12AT7 for now, didn't find better yet, but that probably is because it is really critical to have perfectly balanced tubes here, and the 12AT7's I have available are just off-the-shelf items. BTW, all suggestions are welcome concerning this tube!

OK then.... the last thing I will undertake is trying to balance the vibrolux and bassman channels. Ideally getting the bassman a bit down in level. Once that's done, the amp is pretty much perfect!

Cheers
Dirk


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:02 pm
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Dirk Offringa wrote:
OK then.... the last thing I will undertake is trying to balance the vibrolux and bassman channels. Ideally getting the bassman a bit down in level.


I'm pretty lucky in that regard with the SSTwin. The GAIN knob alows me to balance the 2 sounds nicely. Also I was convinced by forumite BMW2002Ti to use one of my Sylvania 12AT7's in the PI and it sounded pretty good to my ears.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:29 am
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Interesting stuff here, I just got my Super Sonic Twin amp and notice a lot of noise when the FX loops is on (actually this is the second amp as I returned the first one because of this same issue ... but still have the same problem on the new one) I posted a new topic here viewtopic.php?f=13&t=87649 for those interested.

If you guys have a good solution for this, that would be much appreciated, for now I use the preamp out power amp in solution for FX loop, which works, strange the dedicated FX loops sounds this bad, how is this possible on an amp of this level ?

thanks,

Hans


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:15 pm
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See my response on your other thread.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:10 pm
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" I have yet to find the perfect Phase Inverter. "

For long-tailed 12AT7 PI's, I like the Philips/Valvo/Mullard/Siemens E81CC (6201). Get one that has a nice balance between the plates (less than 5% difference), strong testing, and quiet. They has a nice neutral tone, good bass and treble extension, and lost forvever ---even under high current load.

NOS US made black plate 6201 are also very good. Esp the triple mica ones.

http://tctubes.com/images/products/deta ... WA_800.JPG


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:08 am
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Thanks for the tip, I'll try to find one of those as soon as I can, I'm currently touring so I don't have any time to do serious tweaking, but I'l looking forward to my few days of vacation in september to "finish" the amp. BTW, I've done about 30 gigs with it, both loud open air venues and quieter indoor gigs, in the abovementioned configuration, and it's behaving beautifully!

Dirk


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:07 pm
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Hope I'm not hi-jacking the thread but wanted to post on my experience modding my SS 112 to the SS 60. I also highly recommend putting hot glue or silicone on the tiny wires coming off the boards going to the valves. If you try to move the boards without doing this you will break the wires.

First thing was to fix the hum. Tracked that down to several of the 22uF/500v IC caps leaking. And my PT was running way too hot! So I replaced all of the high voltage IC e-caps in the amp including the bios and main filter caps with F&T's.

1@ 100uF/100v
4@22uF/500v
2@100uF/350v
2@47uF/350v
1@100uF/100v

The the lead dressing from the PT and AC lines. Twisted those and pushed them over the AC filter board. Also the heaters needed to be twisted better too.

Then I compared the SS 112 to SS 60 schematics. Mine already had some resistors and caps changed to the newer values so check yours before pulling them out. Also note on the schematic there are different values for the head and combos.

Parts I changed were:

C2- was .0022uF 400v, changed to a .0033uF/400v Xicon Metalized Polyprop
C5- 0.1uF 400v didn't change already in mine
C7- was a 120pF/500v ceramic, changed to 47pF/500v polystyrene film
C11- 10pF/1kv ceramic to a 33pF/500v silver mica
C22- Swapped the ceramic 150pF 1Kv for a Silver Mica equivalent value.
C25- was 680pF 1kv, changed to .001uF/100v Xicon Metalized Polyprop
C54- 22uf/50v e-cap to 47uF/50v. Mine was changed already

R22- 3.3M to 1.5M
R161- 470k to 1M, mine had it already
R167- 470k to 1M, mine had it already
R105- 10.0k 1% to 11.0k 1%, mine had it already

There is one extra bit of circuit they added. It's at D5 on the first page of the SS60 schematic.
[url]
http://support.fender.com/schematics/gu ... _Rev-A.pdf[/url]

They also added I'm assuming a .015uf cap, C99 in series with a 47k resistor, R160 parallel to the existing 120k resistor R23. When I added this on the back of the PCB it killed the high end on the Vibro channel. I used a Mallory 150 .01uf/630v and resistor going to ground tying in at the R23, R22 junction. I might have it backwards but it actually sounds fine without it to my ears. I'll post a pic later, maybe someone can tell me if it's upside down or not.


All this work made a huge difference in the tone and feel of the amp. The Vibro is usable now and everything is much smoother now then before.


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:44 pm
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tejaus wrote:
All this work made a huge difference in the tone and feel of the amp. The Vibro is usable now and everything is much smoother now then before.


And the hiss/hum is gone as well?

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:48 pm
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tejaus wrote:
Hope I'm not hi-jacking the thread but wanted to post on my experience modding my SS 112 to the SS 60.
<....snip....>
All this work made a huge difference in the tone and feel of the amp. The Vibro is usable now and everything is much smoother now then before.


Thanks for sharing! I'll certainly do some of those mods if not all in a couple of weeks (still on tour right now), I had sort of prepared this as well, already ordered the parts but didn't have time to spend before the summer tour. Glad to hear from someone who actually did the mods!

Dirk


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:30 pm
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The hum is gone. Besides the bad caps a lot of hum was eliminated just by twisting amd moving the PT wires over the power supply board.

I used Sovtek 12ax7WA in the reverb and effects loops to lower the gain and NOS 12ax7 tubes for V1, V2, V3 and a JAN Sylvania 12at7 for the PI. Playing live you never hear the hiss anyway. At home put a patch cable in the effects loop and lower the volume that way.


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic 112 mods
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:28 pm
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I decided to leave the added C9 and R160 off completely. I think I'm going to change C25 back to a 680pF pr lower. It makes the Burn channel too dark really and it's already dark to begin with.


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