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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:18 pm
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Wow!

The following applies to any tube amp, and is "general".

The wattage rating of a speaker is the maximum amount of "power" that the speaker can handle. A 50 watt speaker can be used with any amp rated up to 50 watts. It is usually best to have a higher wattage rated speaker than the amp's max wattage output. For example do not use a 10 watt speaker with a 100 watt amp, as the amp's power will exceed the speaker ability to handle that power.

The wattage rating of speaker(s) connected to any amp should be equal to or greater than the wattage rating of the amp. The speaker wattage rating is not what the amp "pushes against", so a 50 watt speaker is fine for a 2 watt amp.

The impedance of the speaker is what the amp "pushes against", and to get the most power from the amp the impedance of speaker(s) and amp should be the same (matched). It is perfectly fine to use a mismatched impedance of within 2 to 1 either way. For example, an 8 ohm amp is fine with any speaker(s) from 4 ohm to 16 ohm, but will get the most power out of the amp when matching with an 8 ohm speaker(s).

I hope this is another opportunity to see Chet's beautiful BJr with 2x12 speakers rated 4 ohms total.

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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:00 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
Wow!

The following applies to any tube amp, and is "general".

The wattage rating of a speaker is the maximum amount of "power" that the speaker can handle. A 50 watt speaker can be used with any amp rated up to 50 watts. It is usually best to have a higher wattage rated speaker than the amp's max wattage output. For example do not use a 10 watt speaker with a 100 watt amp, as the amp's power will exceed the speaker ability to handle that power.

The wattage rating of speaker(s) connected to any amp should be equal to or greater than the wattage rating of the amp. The speaker wattage rating is not what the amp "pushes against", so a 50 watt speaker is fine for a 2 watt amp.

The impedance of the speaker is what the amp "pushes against", and to get the most power from the amp the impedance of speaker(s) and amp should be the same (matched). It is perfectly fine to use a mismatched impedance of within 2 to 1 either way. For example, an 8 ohm amp is fine with any speaker(s) from 4 ohm to 16 ohm, but will get the most power out of the amp when matching with an 8 ohm speaker(s).

I hope this is another opportunity to see Chet's beautiful BJr with 2x12 speakers rated 4 ohms total.


+1. Also see this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=74972

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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:15 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Wow!

The following applies to any tube amp, and is "general".

The wattage rating of a speaker is the maximum amount of "power" that the speaker can handle. A 50 watt speaker can be used with any amp rated up to 50 watts. It is usually best to have a higher wattage rated speaker than the amp's max wattage output. For example do not use a 10 watt speaker with a 100 watt amp, as the amp's power will exceed the speaker ability to handle that power.

The wattage rating of speaker(s) connected to any amp should be equal to or greater than the wattage rating of the amp. The speaker wattage rating is not what the amp "pushes against", so a 50 watt speaker is fine for a 2 watt amp.

The impedance of the speaker is what the amp "pushes against", and to get the most power from the amp the impedance of speaker(s) and amp should be the same (matched). It is perfectly fine to use a mismatched impedance of within 2 to 1 either way. For example, an 8 ohm amp is fine with any speaker(s) from 4 ohm to 16 ohm, but will get the most power out of the amp when matching with an 8 ohm speaker(s).

I hope this is another opportunity to see Chet's beautiful BJr with 2x12 speakers rated 4 ohms total.


Hello shimmilou,
Thanks for stopping in and adding to the discussion. I appreciate the explanation. I can get my head around that. Would it be possible to elaborate on the consequences of mismatched speaker wattage. I was planning again on a 212 with the 8 Ohm cannabis Rex at 50 Watt with say a Greenback which IIRC is 30 Watt. Not fully cogniscent of the differences these wattage differences make, I am still afloat in a choppy sea!
Thanks again for your time!
Glenn


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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:31 am
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+1. Also see this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=74972

Hello Bill,
I looked the thread over and it does confirm shimmilou's point. I understand that part, thanks to all who have helped. I have read several horror stories that seem to be 180 Degrees out from your assessment. Also there is the dummy load that was suggested to put on the amp output to protect it if turned on without a speaker, ?????
The last portion of the equation is the matching of speaker wattage ratings say as mentioned in the reply to shimmilou. Is there a problem/equation or result that makes this impractical or worse unmusical? Thanks for your help!
How do we see Chets fabulous Blues Junior with 212?
Glenn


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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:12 am
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Art1 wrote:
I understand completely. I would say go ahead with two 30 watt speakers for the Blues Jr cabinet then. Two 16 ohms wired in parallel for a total of 8 ohms.
Now you just have to figure out what type of tone you want, how soon you want the speakers to "break up" if at all. How heavy do you want them to be etc....
This is where you want to read the specs carefully and talk to others about what you have narrowed it down to. Art


Also to make note is to make sure the Blues Jr is not also driving
it's own combo amp speaker. Just the 2x12 cabinet and that is it.

I looked, but did not see that Fender ships a Blues JR amp head.
But, there are a coupler of supplers that make the amp head cabinets
to slip in your Blues Jr chassis. Might be cool. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:20 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Wow! The following applies to any tube amp, and is "general".
The wattage rating of a speaker is the maximum amount of "power" that the speaker can handle. A 50 watt speaker can be used with any amp rated up to 50 watts. It is usually best to have a higher wattage rated speaker than the amp's max wattage output. For example do not use a 10 watt speaker with a 100 watt amp, as the amp's power will exceed the speaker ability to handle that power.
The wattage rating of speaker(s) connected to any amp should be equal to or greater than the wattage rating of the amp. The speaker wattage rating is not what the amp "pushes against", so a 50 watt speaker is fine for a 2 watt amp.
The impedance of the speaker is what the amp "pushes against", and to get the most power from the amp the impedance of speaker(s) and amp should be the same (matched). It is perfectly fine to use a mismatched impedance of within 2 to 1 either way. For example, an 8 ohm amp is fine with any speaker(s) from 4 ohm to 16 ohm, but will get the most power out of the amp when matching with an 8 ohm speaker(s). I hope this is another opportunity to see Chet's beautiful BJr with 2x12 speakers rated 4 ohms total.


Hi. Shimmy. Question.
Is it good for a 105w Fender Twin Reverb II to drive two 60w speakers or four 30w speakers?
Personally, I have felt to double the speaker wattage capability of the amps.

For instance, 200w speaker for 100w amp head.
Two 100w speakers for 100w amp head.
Four 50w speakers for 100w amp head.

But, in your experience, with a 100w amp frequently dimed to 10 on the volume,
is a single 100w speaker able to sustain the amp's power, or should 150w or 200w
be more desirable. I suspect speaker breakup is quicker with the 100w speaker,
but I also suspect the 100w speaker will fail sooner than the 150w speaker.

What have you experienced or suggest? Toppscore

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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:23 am
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glennc717 wrote:
+1. Also see this thread: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=74972
Hello Bill, I looked the thread over and it does confirm shimmilou's point. I understand that part, thanks to all who have helped. I have read several horror stories that seem to be 180 Degrees out from your assessment. Also there is the dummy load that was suggested to put on the amp output to protect it if turned on without a speaker, ?????
The last portion of the equation is the matching of speaker wattage ratings say as mentioned in the reply to shimmilou. Is there a problem/equation or result that makes this impractical or worse unmusical? Thanks for your help! How do we see Chets fabulous Blues Junior with 212? Glenn


Good stuff.
Following is some interesting Internet info:

RMS – WATTS – Peak – Continuous Power!
What do they all mean? Today we are going to quickly tackle this question and in the process equip you with enough knowledge to purchase the right speakers for your home theater setup. First lets look at the terms, then we will tackle what you should be concerned with.

WATTS – This is the rating of how much amplification power a speaker can handle or a receiver or amplifier can produce. This is the number we are going to try and match, but which one? The WATT rating of equipment is stated in many confusing ways. The three main uses are Peak, Continuous Power, and RMS. Let’s look at those three and figure out which to use in our decision making process.

Peak WATTS – This is the maximum amount of amplification power a speaker can receive before damage or destruction occurs. (Well obviously we don’t want that to happen so we shouldn’t use this in our decision.)

Continuous Power – This describes the amount of power a speaker can handle for extended periods of time without causing damage. This one sounds promising! Only problem, this rating is usually buried deep in a manual and not easily visible on product packaging. So this rating standard may not be the best to use.

RMS – Stands for Root Mean Squared (there you go your GEEKY WORD for the day to impress your friends.) This method of measurement is the industry standard. It is basically the average power a speaker should be operated at. It is also usually plastered all over product packaging and is the preferred method of matching equipment to speakers for professionals.

So with that in mind you should never match the RMS WATTS of a receiver or amplifier directly to the Peak WATTS of a speaker (damage will ensue!) What you should do is match the RMS WATTS of the speaker equal to or greater than the RMS output of your receiver/amplifier.

example scenarios:
speaker RMS (50 W) – amplifier RMS (100 W) – BAD IDEA!
speaker RMS (100 W) – amplifier RMS (50 W) – GOOD!
speaker RMS (50 W) – amplifier RMS (50 W) – GOOD!

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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:31 am
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glennc717 wrote:
...Would it be possible to elaborate on the consequences of mismatched speaker wattage....


The speaker(s) must have at least a high enough wattage rating to handle the wattage produced by the amp. If you have a 15 watt amp such as the BJr, then you need at least a 15 watt speaker(s) or higher, and it doesn't matter how much higher. If you put a 5 watt speaker(s) on a 15 watt amp, you can blow the speaker(s). If you are mixing speakers of different wattage ratings, just add each rating for the total. For example a 2x12 with one speaker 50 watts and one speaker 30 watts, you have 80 watts total. The wattage rating of a speaker is simply about the max wattage that it can handle, nothing else. Same as a fuse amp rating, meaning the most current it can handle, but perfectly fine to use less current, and it doesn't matter how much less.

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Por favor, disculpe mi español, no se llega a la práctica con mucha frecuencia.


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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:36 am
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Toppscore wrote:
...Is it good for a 105w Fender Twin Reverb II to drive two 60w speakers or four 30w speakers?...


Two 60 watt speakers - 120 watts total
Four 30 watt speaker - 120 watts total

In each case the speakers are rated high enough to handle 105 watts. But yes, IMO it is always better to have more room for error (peaks), but some people like to get distortion from speakers and will push the speaker limits.

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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:17 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Toppscore wrote:
...Is it good for a 105w Fender Twin Reverb II to drive two 60w speakers or four 30w speakers?...


Two 60 watt speakers - 120 watts total
Four 30 watt speaker - 120 watts total

In each case the speakers are rated high enough to handle 105 watts. But yes, IMO it is always better to have more room for error (peaks), but some people like to get distortion from speakers and will push the speaker limits.



Thank you for solidifying my ideas.
I am going to have some speaker cabinets made that will have
an easy remove speaker feature so it will be easy to try different
speakers within the same cabinets. You have seen my selection
of Fender amp heads, but wanna make sure the speak/amp handshaking
is correct. Thanks again. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:13 pm
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Toppscore wrote:
Art1 wrote:
I understand completely. I would say go ahead with two 30 watt speakers for the Blues Jr cabinet then. Two 16 ohms wired in parallel for a total of 8 ohms.
Now you just have to figure out what type of tone you want, how soon you want the speakers to "break up" if at all. How heavy do you want them to be etc....
This is where you want to read the specs carefully and talk to others about what you have narrowed it down to. Art


Also to make note is to make sure the Blues Jr is not also driving
it's own combo amp speaker. Just the 2x12 cabinet and that is it.

I looked, but did not see that Fender ships a Blues JR amp head.
But, there are a coupler of supplers that make the amp head cabinets
to slip in your Blues Jr chassis. Might be cool. Toppscore :)


Yes, I know what you mean. I did see a 212 cabinet with cutout for the amp chassis as another option. I'd probably go and leave the amp stock and just cabinet out. thanx
Glenn


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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:20 pm
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Good stuff.
Following is some interesting Internet info:

RMS – WATTS – Peak – Continuous Power!
What do they all mean? Today we are going to quickly tackle this question and in the process equip you with enough knowledge to purchase the right speakers for your home theater setup. First lets look at the terms, then we will tackle what you should be concerned with.

WATTS – This is the rating of how much amplification power a speaker can handle or a receiver or amplifier can produce. This is the number we are going to try and match, but which one? The WATT rating of equipment is stated in many confusing ways. The three main uses are Peak, Continuous Power, and RMS. Let’s look at those three and figure out which to use in our decision making process.

Peak WATTS – This is the maximum amount of amplification power a speaker can receive before damage or destruction occurs. (Well obviously we don’t want that to happen so we shouldn’t use this in our decision.)

Continuous Power – This describes the amount of power a speaker can handle for extended periods of time without causing damage. This one sounds promising! Only problem, this rating is usually buried deep in a manual and not easily visible on product packaging. So this rating standard may not be the best to use.

RMS – Stands for Root Mean Squared (there you go your GEEKY WORD for the day to impress your friends.) This method of measurement is the industry standard. It is basically the average power a speaker should be operated at. It is also usually plastered all over product packaging and is the preferred method of matching equipment to speakers for professionals.

So with that in mind you should never match the RMS WATTS of a receiver or amplifier directly to the Peak WATTS of a speaker (damage will ensue!) What you should do is match the RMS WATTS of the speaker equal to or greater than the RMS output of your receiver/amplifier.

example scenarios:
speaker RMS (50 W) – amplifier RMS (100 W) – BAD IDEA!
speaker RMS (100 W) – amplifier RMS (50 W) – GOOD!
speaker RMS (50 W) – amplifier RMS (50 W) – GOOD![/quote]

Toppscore,
Yes, definitely cool! But I am still wondering about using mismatched wattage speakers in a 212. Say a 25 Watt and a 50 Watt for the Blues Jr. which is 15 Watt. What {:-)), would be the effect? Good, bad, slightly bad, one speaker louder than the other?????
Still lost in this particular concept! Thanks again, great info.
Glenn


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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:24 pm
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The speaker(s) must have at least a high enough wattage rating to handle the wattage produced by the amp. If you have a 15 watt amp such as the BJr, then you need at least a 15 watt speaker(s) or higher, and it doesn't matter how much higher. If you put a 5 watt speaker(s) on a 15 watt amp, you can blow the speaker(s). If you are mixing speakers of different wattage ratings, just add each rating for the total. For example a 2x12 with one speaker 50 watts and one speaker 30 watts, you have 80 watts total. The wattage rating of a speaker is simply about the max wattage that it can handle, nothing else. Same as a fuse amp rating, meaning the most current it can handle, but perfectly fine to use less current, and it doesn't matter how much less.[/quote]

Howdy shimmilou,
Okay, now where zeroing in on the last piece of my puzzle. So your saying there would be no consequence in using the mix matched wattage speakers. Again, have read contradictory info, or maybe I just didn't get it!!!
Thanks
Glenn


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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:12 pm
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Toppscore wrote:
Following is some interesting Internet info:

RMS – WATTS – Peak – Continuous Power!What do they all mean? Today we are going to quickly tackle this question and in the process equip you with enough knowledge to purchase the right speakers for your home theater setup. First lets look at the terms, then we will tackle what you should be concerned with.

WATTS – This is the rating of how much amplification power a speaker can handle or a receiver or amplifier can produce. This is the number we are going to try and match, but which one? The WATT rating of equipment is stated in many confusing ways. The three main uses are Peak, Continuous Power, and RMS. Let’s look at those three and figure out which to use in our decision making process.

Peak WATTS – This is the maximum amount of amplification power a speaker can receive before damage or destruction occurs. (Well obviously we don’t want that to happen so we shouldn’t use this in our decision.)

Continuous Power – This describes the amount of power a speaker can handle for extended periods of time without causing damage. This one sounds promising! Only problem, this rating is usually buried deep in a manual and not easily visible on product packaging. So this rating standard may not be the best to use.

RMS – Stands for Root Mean Squared (there you go your GEEKY WORD for the day to impress your friends.) This method of measurement is the industry standard. It is basically the average power a speaker should be operated at. It is also usually plastered all over product packaging and is the preferred method of matching equipment to speakers for professionals.

So with that in mind you should never match the RMS WATTS of a receiver or amplifier directly to the Peak WATTS of a speaker (damage will ensue!) What you should do is match the RMS WATTS of the speaker equal to or greater than the RMS output of your receiver/amplifier.

example scenarios:speaker RMS (50 W) – amplifier RMS (100 W) – BAD IDEA!
speaker RMS (100 W) – amplifier RMS (50 W) – GOOD!
speaker RMS (50 W) – amplifier RMS (50 W) – GOOD!


glennc717 wrote:
Toppscore,
Yes, definitely cool! But I am still wondering about using mismatched wattage speakers
in a 212. Say a 25 Watt and a 50 Watt for the Blues Jr. which is 15 Watt. What {:-))
would be the effect? Good, bad, slightly bad, one speaker louder than the other?????
Still lost in this particular concept! Thanks again, great info. Glenn



Why Why Why ???
Get matched ohms & wattage.

Personally, I will have 2x12 cabinets built with P12N and C12N Jensens.
But, the handshaking for wattage and ohms is so important and even
more so imporant for tube amps cause you can trash your output transformer.

Are you just trying to save a buck?
Why build or by a nice 2x12 and put weird stuff in it that all your buddies will laugh at.
Like buying a Cadillac with a VW engine = :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: 212 Cabinet for the Fender Blues Junior
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:17 pm
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You can mix speaker brands and types and sizes.
Just be consistant with the ohms & wattage.
Toppscore :)

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