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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:18 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
Hou-Tex wrote:
I just leaned something about about channel jumping and being a 180* of of phase. I read somewhere that most Strats with 5 way switches are wired to have some selections between pups out of phase. In position 4 my guitar allays sounded like doo doo poo poo. I tried position number 4, switched the ABY box to the other 180 setting, and I now have a totally new pup combo in order to play with.

I highly suggest channel jumping if you have a two channel amp with this box.


The idea that positions 2 and 4 in a standard 5-way Strat switch are out of phase is false. What you are hearing is simply the difference in tone due to two closely spaced pickups and how the frequencies generated from each position reinforce or cancel each other. It is no different than a two pickup guitar. Positions 2 and 4 provide what is generally referred to as "quack" in a Strat. Now you COULD, if you wanted to, wire the pickups out of phase with each other, but that is not the normal condition in a stock 5-way.


So there is no phase differential?

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:29 pm
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Hou-Tex wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
Hou-Tex wrote:
I just leaned something about about channel jumping and being a 180* of of phase. I read somewhere that most Strats with 5 way switches are wired to have some selections between pups out of phase. In position 4 my guitar allays sounded like doo doo poo poo. I tried position number 4, switched the ABY box to the other 180 setting, and I now have a totally new pup combo in order to play with.

I highly suggest channel jumping if you have a two channel amp with this box.


The idea that positions 2 and 4 in a standard 5-way Strat switch are out of phase is false. What you are hearing is simply the difference in tone due to two closely spaced pickups and how the frequencies generated from each position reinforce or cancel each other. It is no different than a two pickup guitar. Positions 2 and 4 provide what is generally referred to as "quack" in a Strat. Now you COULD, if you wanted to, wire the pickups out of phase with each other, but that is not the normal condition in a stock 5-way.


So there is no phase differential?


The only"phase differential" is due to the fact that the pickups are seeing a different part of the vibrating string. As the string moves, the pickups, being in different locations, see slight differences in phase and amplitude along the vibrating string. That is why a bridge pickup sounds different from a neck pickup. Combine the two signals together and you get some phase and amplitude cancellations or additions. However, the pickups are still electrically wired in phase with each other.

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:52 pm
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String oscillation? And like Intonation? Which can be altered with pup height. I get it.

Thanks Bill. I hope I don't bore yall with tech talk. I'd much rather talk tech than discuss what's on American Idol. Just me, but I think it sharpens our skills rather than numbing our brains.

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:56 pm
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Hou-Tex wrote:
String oscillation? And like Intonation? Which can be altered with pup height. I get it.

Thanks Bill. I hope I don't bore yall with tech talk. I'd much rather talk tech than discuss what's on American Idol. Just me, but I think it sharpens our skills rather than numbing our brains.


Well, I are an engineer. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:18 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
Hou-Tex wrote:
String oscillation? And like Intonation? Which can be altered with pup height. I get it.

Thanks Bill. I hope I don't bore yall with tech talk. I'd much rather talk tech than discuss what's on American Idol. Just me, but I think it sharpens our skills rather than numbing our brains.


Well, I are an engineer. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


And I am a Lab Tech. :D


Man I appreciate yall. If I ask too many questions, let me know. If we can bounce thoughts off of each other I call it brain storming. If it helps others, it's "Win Win" for everyone.

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:25 pm
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Hou-Tex wrote:
Man I appreciate yall. If I ask too many questions, let me know. If we can bounce thoughts off of each other I call it brain storming. If it helps others, it's "Win Win" for everyone.


+1

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:30 pm
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I always enjoy a meaningful technical discussion. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:48 pm
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Shimmy should be here soon.


:P

I hope others can join in.

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:17 pm
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OK

In a typical SSS configured Strat, the middle pup is reverse-wound and reverse-polarity (RWRP) in comparison to the neck and bridge pups. The winding of the middle pup (RW) is out of phase with the other pups windings by 180 degrees (see "left-hand rule"). But adding the reverse polarity of the magnets on the middle pup means that the signal output of the middle pup is back "in phase" with the other two pups.

When the RWRP middle pup is combined with either the neck (pos 4) or the bridge (pos 2), there is noise cancelling that is not present when using any of the pups alone (pos 1, 3, 5). These positions 2 and 4 are commonly referred to as "out of phase", as the windings and magnet polarity of the middle pup are both reversed in comparison with the other two pups. Since there is RW and RP on the middle pup, this means that the signal out of the middle pup is in phase with the other two pups. If the pups were truly 180 degrees out of phase with each other, there would be no sound produced when in pos 2 and 4.

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:47 pm
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Noiseless (stacked humbuckers) don't have a RWRP middle pickup and they are all in phase with each other.

Two pickup Teles typically have a RWRP neck pickup (except when they don't), so that there is noise canceling in the #2 position. The pickups are still in phase with each other.

Even when two pickups are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, signal cancellation is not 100%. There are numerous wiring schemes for Les Pauls that put the two humbuckers out of phase with each other. Because they are picking up vibrations from different sections of the string there is still sound output, usually very raspy and lacking in bass. The only way signal cancellation would be 100% is if the pickups are sensing the exact same spot on the string, which obviously is impossible. Even if the out of phase pickups were on opposite sides of the same part of the string the signal outputs of both would combine back in phase because the string vibration is out of phase in relation to the two pickups.

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:36 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
In a typical SSS configured Strat, the middle pup is reverse-wound and reverse-polarity (RWRP) in comparison to the neck and bridge pups.


:?:

A perusal of Fender's currently-available Strat pickup sets reveals precisely three types which feature the RW/RP middle pickup -- the Fat '50s, the Texas Specials, and the Tex-Mex's. Of these three, only one (the Texas Specials) is available in a currently-catalogued production guitar (the signature SRV). You've made some valid observations regarding the theory of operation when a RW/RP pickup is used but the fact of the matter is, few Fenders are so equipped with these type of pickups from the factory. Bill has nailed the mystique of the "quack" pretty well. The pickups may sound out-of-phase, but in reality they're not.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:26 am
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Now that we have that all sorted out, to get back on topic for this particular forum, are there any other AMP questions? :D

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:39 am
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WTF :?: There is no noise cancelling for SSS Fender Strats in pos 2 and 4 unless there is a RWRP middle pup. Humbuckers are not single coils, completely different. Humbuckers often use each of the two coils in series, whereas single coils are almost always combined in parallel, at least in a standard configuration in a Strat. The only thing "nailed" is added confusion of something simple.

Nearly all sets of modern Fender pups feature a RWRP middle pup. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a model without a RWRP middle pup, one exception being a Strat with the 69 set. The Am Std before the fat 50s had RWRP middle pup, as did many many models. The Tex-Mex have a RWRP middle pup. It would be easier to point out the very few sets that don't have a RWRP middle pup. The original Strats did not have a RWRP middle pup, but since the RWRP middle pup has been introduced it is the norm and not the exception. It may not say it in a catalog, but if you've been inside many guitars, you'll see that the RWRP is the norm for the middle pup.

As I stated, the middle pup is not really out of phase because it has RW winding and RP magnets. It is the RWRP that gives noise cancelling, nothing else. The pups position has nothing to do with noise cancelling, as evidenced by the fact that there is no noise cancelling before the RWRP pups were introduced.

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:57 am
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shimmilou wrote:
It would be easier to point out the very few sets that don't have a RWRP middle pup.


Please list them.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Channel jumping a DRRI.
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:10 am
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The comment was:

Hou-Tex wrote:
I read somewhere that most Strats with 5 way switches are wired to have some selections between pups out of phase.


My responses covered all cases of standard 5-way switching in a Strat. Regardless of whether the three pickups in a Strat are single coils with the same electrical and magnetic polarity, single coils with RW/RP middles, or stacked humbuckers (or even PAF type humbuckers), ALL pickups output their signals in phase with each other unless wired otherwise. No added confusion. All very simple. I didn't address noise canceling as I felt it was not relevant to the comment I was responding to.

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