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Post subject: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneously
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:26 am
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Loungers,

A colleague's son has a Princeton RRI and a Deluxe RRI. He would like the option of playing through both speakers simultaneously. We figured he could:

-patch a signal from one combo amp to the other (sounds complicated (hard wiring changes?), like you might want to output a preamp signal from the amp you are playing thru to the receiving combo?)
- Power PRRI speaker from DRRI ext speaker jack (or vice versa), seems easy to do, concern about matching speaker volumes and appropriate resistances
- some other way of doing this? pros and cons of doing it different ways. maybe not a good idea to do period?

Thanks, Craig H


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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:35 am
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Neither amp has a line-out jack so that method becomes overly problematic.

Likely the easiest way is to plug an instrument cable from jack #2 of whichever amp has the guitar plugged into it and "jump" the signal over to the other amp's jack #1 (it won't matter which of the DRRI's channels is used or which amp is "first" in the signal chain). There will be *some* insertion loss between the first amp and the second but this can be compensated for by using the second amp's volume control.

Or, if finances permit, both amps can be played in tandem by using an A/B/Y box.

HTH

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:27 am
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Indeed, an A/B/Y box seems the viable option.

Not to hijack the thread, but I've a question. Is there a loss of tone using A/B/Y boxes aside from the additional cable length?


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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:37 am
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toronado, definitely no hijack there, I was interested in that question, too.

Arjay, thanks for the prompt response. We like the A/B/Y recommendation (for independent control of each combo amp). Are those boxes commercially available (might you have a link, I will search too)? Instead of A/B/Y could one use a simple Radio Shack splitter from guitar to each combo amp input, or is there something magical and / or "safer" using the box? I can see how the box would be way more convenient for performance settings.

Craig H


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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:01 am
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Arjay, have completed a websearch, LOTS of ABY boxes out there. Some are stereo (?), and some have 9V inputs (?). Any brands recommended vs avoided? Might get one myself, and would think that quietness, optimal signal transfer and durability would be the primary factors.

Craig H


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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:17 am
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Here you go......

http://www.tonebone.com/re-bigshot-aby.htm

About eighty bucks from Musician's Friend. No batteries, no fuss, no aggravation.

It's been reported that there is a *slight* loss of tone on the "B" output but frankly, I've never personally noticed it. If it is there, merely compensate using the tone controls of the amp being fed from that output. Basically, it's a bulletproof piece of gear that's indispensible (at least to me).

HTH

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:04 pm
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Arjay, the A/B/Y box you recommended above arrived yesterday:

- well made (particularly better than most of competition I examined in stores)
- sonically quiet
- the ground loop cancelling and phasing switches really work (loop damping requires different settings for different guitars)

So the testing was 1 guitar into 2 amps.

- both amps on with both reverbs on made a real spooky sound (I liked that; but as you would expect, both tremolos on cannot be synched)
- balancing the two amps to each other takes a minute or two
- unexpected bonus that I had not idea would be so interesting was to play a musical passage twice, and independently compare between the two amps. I found that some passages from the same tune sounded better on one amp and some better on the other. This sparked arguments with myself.

Thanks for the recommendation! Craig H


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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:19 pm
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You're quite welcome, Craig.

Indeed, it's nigh impossible to sync up tremolos from two independent amps. As well, your two amps each use different tremolo systems. You may find the PRRI's more pleasing to the ear.

Rawk on!

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:19 am
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I use the same box and it's on my pedalboard - great stuff.

I like that you can't sync up the tremolos - you can experiment with speed and intensity to try to match, or fast/slow or on/off between the two amps. I do it all the time with the Bandmaster+Dr. Z, Bandmaster + showman, etc.

Fender had I believe 3 different tremolos throughout the years - the early power-tube driven brownface (loved by many), the blackface 6V6 1/2 12AX7 preamp tube tremolo as found on the Princeton Reverb, and then the optoisolator "roach bug" method on Deluxe Reverb and all 6L6 amps. I have the latter two and enjoy both, but if I only had one tremolo to play, it would be the Princeton Reverb.

That is, until I get a brownface...

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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:31 am
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I've done this with a DIY ABY and my VC and a friend's DRRI. A great mix of tones. Brown OD with clean DRRI. And pretty darn loud, too.


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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:20 pm
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Yes, BMW2002Ti, I forgot to mention how LOUD a PRRI and a DRRI together were!

All, when balancing tone and volume to get what I thought was the best sound, both amps (speakers) were side by side at the same height. Testing I have done so far with both amps playing has been side by side. Is there any reason to stack them? Easy to do (with PRRI on top). Standard audio speakers arrangement in a single cabinet is mostly largest diameter speaker at the bottom with smaller diameter at the top. Is that done to make the speaker weight distributive-wise more stable, or is there a sonic reason for that setup? (In the past, I never turned bookshelf stereo speakers upside down to test this).
Have noticed electric bass guitar rigs on stage, when 15s and 12s are mixed, 15 always on the bottom. And we have all moved a single speaker around and noted how the lower it is, the bassier it sounds.

Craig H


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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:19 am
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chartman wrote:
Have noticed electric bass guitar rigs on stage, when 15s and 12s are mixed, 15 always on the bottom. And we have all moved a single speaker around and noted how the lower it is, the bassier it sounds.


Likely it's a simple issue of physics -- the cabinet housing the 15's is larger, hence providing a more robust "foundation" on which to stack other (smaller) system components.

And the acoustic-coupling effects of a radiating loudspeaker as regards bass frequencies and proximity to a floor, stage, or band riser are well known. A good example of this is a large permanent house PA or SR system -- you'll never see the sub-woofers suspended via "fly-wire" mounting. They're always positioned at ground level.

HTH

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Advice: playing thru PRRI and DRRI speakers simultaneous
Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:10 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
chartman wrote:
Have noticed electric bass guitar rigs on stage, when 15s and 12s are mixed, 15 always on the bottom. And we have all moved a single speaker around and noted how the lower it is, the bassier it sounds.


Likely it's a simple issue of physics -- the cabinet housing the 15's is larger, hence providing a more robust "foundation" on which to stack other (smaller) system components.

And the acoustic-coupling effects of a radiating loudspeaker as regards bass frequencies and proximity to a floor, stage, or band riser are well known. A good example of this is a large permanent house PA or SR system -- you'll never see the sub-woofers suspended via "fly-wire" mounting. They're always positioned at ground level.

HTH

Arjay


Actually, subs have gotten efficient enough that for array speakers, they do fly subs, although they may be augmented in the front with an array. This area has gone hi tech in terms of delivering not only low end, but how to ensure that you have consistent coverage.

Examples of flown subs (really for the big boys. For weekend warriors, you're better off ground stacking them, usually center and together to get an additional 2-3dB from coupling):

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/p ... id=9&mid=3

the VRX sub can be flown or you can pole mount the HF speakers on top.

there are tradeoff's I'm sure, but I too was amazed that subs are now part of these giant line arrays.

I'm just hoping to add 1 QSC KW181 sub to our band's PA later this year. No flying for us!

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