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Post subject: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:22 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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I'm new to tube amps and having lots of fun trying to figure out how things work, especially on my HRD and Vibro Champ XD.

Firstly the HDR. It is my understanding that in order to get an OD sound from the power tubes, the volume needs to be extremely high. Possible in a large stadium but not in your bedroom or basement studio. :) If this is true then what do we hear when we're on the 2nd channel with the Drive set to 4, for example, and the Master at 3? Is this the sound of the power tubes breaking up or is it the pre amp tubes or perhaps something else?

With the Vibro Champ XD it's easy to get OD at a reasonable level by putting the Master up and lowering the Volume. Same question; is this the sound of the power tubes breaking up or the pre amp tubes or something else?

Thanks and Cheers!
BM

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Post subject: Re: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:35 pm
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Yep, preamp distortion on the HRDlx drive channel, power tube distortion at high volumes on the clean channel. On the drive channel, at high volume, you get both preamp and power tube distortion. The Vibro Champ is Cathode biased (and single-ended, with only one output tube), lending naturally to power tube distortion even at lower volumes. The HRDlx is fixed bias, lending to a cleaner sound at lower volumes, less power tube distortion. And the 6V6 amp will typically breakup sooner at lower volume than a 6L6 amp.

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Last edited by shimmilou on Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:36 pm
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Master volume amps primarily give you preamp distortion when you have the first volume set high and the master set low. That allows you some level of "dirt" without driving you out of the room.

In order to get power tube distortion you have to have both the first volume and master volume set high. In that case, the amp is acting just like a non-master volume amp. That is why low power amps (5 watts or so) are so popular because you can crank them up to easily get power tube distortion without blowing your eardrums out.

I have a modified Champion 600 running through a 12" speaker cab. I can crank it and get great power tube distortion and still have a reasonable conversation with someone in the room. On the other hand in order to get power tube distortion in my 5F6A clone (40 watts, 4x10" speakers) I have to set the volume at "8" or above and I can only stand to do it for a few minutes at a time because it is LOUD! :shock: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:29 pm
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:37 am
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Bluer Monkey wrote:
I'm new to tube amps and having lots of fun trying to figure out how things work, especially on my HRD and Vibro Champ XD.

Firstly the HDR. It is my understanding that in order to get an OD sound from the power tubes, the volume needs to be extremely high. Possible in a large stadium but not in your bedroom or basement studio. :) If this is true then what do we hear when we're on the 2nd channel with the Drive set to 4, for example, and the Master at 3? Is this the sound of the power tubes breaking up or is it the pre amp tubes or perhaps something else?

With the Vibro Champ XD it's easy to get OD at a reasonable level by putting the Master up and lowering the Volume. Same question; is this the sound of the power tubes breaking up or the pre amp tubes or something else?

Thanks and Cheers!
BM

I cured the same problem by getting a small non tube amp, the Frontman 25R. I can play clean or dirty at low volume levels when needed. Best $99 I ever spent I think. :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:55 pm
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Location: Natural Bridge, Virginia
paul_f wrote:
Bluer Monkey wrote:
I'm new to tube amps and having lots of fun trying to figure out how things work, especially on my HRD and Vibro Champ XD.

Firstly the HDR. It is my understanding that in order to get an OD sound from the power tubes, the volume needs to be extremely high. Possible in a large stadium but not in your bedroom or basement studio. :) If this is true then what do we hear when we're on the 2nd channel with the Drive set to 4, for example, and the Master at 3? Is this the sound of the power tubes breaking up or is it the pre amp tubes or perhaps something else?

With the Vibro Champ XD it's easy to get OD at a reasonable level by putting the Master up and lowering the Volume. Same question; is this the sound of the power tubes breaking up or the pre amp tubes or something else?

Thanks and Cheers!
BM

I cured the same problem by getting a small non tube amp, the Frontman 25R. I can play clean or dirty at low volume levels when needed. Best $99 I ever spent I think. :mrgreen:


Frontman 25R sounds nothing like a tube amp. I know. I have one plus three tube amps. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:46 am
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:49 pm
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Thanks, guys for the detailed and enlightening replies. There's a whole bunch of stuff that's still way above my head but at least the question of what am I hearing has been answered. ... That's 1 down and 3,897 to go. :)

@paul_f: The Frontman 25R was one I had considered to solve the volume issue but after comparing it to the Vibro Champ XD I'd have to agree with bluesky636. Of course price is a consideration but right now seems to be a good time to buy. I picked one up last week for $119. The store clerk told me that the VChamp has been discontinued and that they're clearing their stock and making room for its replacement: the Super Champ XD.

Cheers!
BM

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Post subject: Re: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:10 pm
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bluesky636 wrote:
paul_f wrote:
Bluer Monkey wrote:
I'm new to tube amps and having lots of fun trying to figure out how things work, especially on my HRD and Vibro Champ XD.

Firstly the HDR. It is my understanding that in order to get an OD sound from the power tubes, the volume needs to be extremely high. Possible in a large stadium but not in your bedroom or basement studio. :) If this is true then what do we hear when we're on the 2nd channel with the Drive set to 4, for example, and the Master at 3? Is this the sound of the power tubes breaking up or is it the pre amp tubes or perhaps something else?

With the Vibro Champ XD it's easy to get OD at a reasonable level by putting the Master up and lowering the Volume. Same question; is this the sound of the power tubes breaking up or the pre amp tubes or something else?

Thanks and Cheers!
BM

I cured the same problem by getting a small non tube amp, the Frontman 25R. I can play clean or dirty at low volume levels when needed. Best $99 I ever spent I think. :mrgreen:


Frontman 25R sounds nothing like a tube amp. I know. I have one plus three tube amps. :wink:

No it sure doesn't. I currently own several tube amps myself and have used them exclusively over four decades of playing. Trying to solve his volume levels issue thats all. :wink: :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:06 pm
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paul_f wrote:
No it sure doesn't. I currently own several tube amps myself and have used them exclusively over four decades of playing. Trying to solve his volume levels issue thats all. :wink: :wink:


+1

For many years I owned a made-in-Taiwan Fender Sidekick Switcher -- a 1 x 12 combo with reverb and channel switching. It was a great little grab-and-go amp when I needed portability for practice or small jams. No......it never sounded as good as a tube model (and no amount of "tweaking" would ever alter that). But it didn't sound "bad" and it was as reliable as your granddad's pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in 30.06 while easily capable of playing a small saloon (as it occasionally did). Heck, sometimes I wish I still had it......

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Trying to understand the tubes
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:11 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
paul_f wrote:
No it sure doesn't. I currently own several tube amps myself and have used them exclusively over four decades of playing. Trying to solve his volume levels issue thats all. :wink: :wink:


+1

For many years I owned a made-in-Taiwan Fender Sidekick Switcher -- a 1 x 12 combo with reverb and channel switching. It was a great little grab-and-go amp when I needed portability for practice or small jams. No......it never sounded as good as a tube model (and no amount of "tweaking" would ever alter that). But it didn't sound "bad" and it was as reliable as your granddad's pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in 30.06 while easily capable of playing a small saloon (as it occasionally did). Heck, sometimes I wish I still had it......

Arjay


As I said, I have a Frontman 25R with a Ragin Cajun speaker in it. It actually sounds quite neat when played together with my 5F1 modded Champion 600. :D

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