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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:35 pm
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Yah, I did the bias pot mod too but I don't remember drilling out any connector pads. I know I desoldered some pads and that may have included the bias pot mod. Ya gotta remember I'm gettin' up there and that was almost 10 years ago, now.

:wink:

As far as the Rebel 20 goes I am surprising myself to find I prefer setting it slightly off center towards the EL84 side but that may be because I'm using it with an A/B/Y switch and my Rivera so I'm using it mostly for searing lead tones. I find that with the wattage dial set to about the middle (10 watts, I guess) and both the 112 cabs in play that it's more than adequate to keep up with the Fandango set to a good loud clean chime. You may recall I put Celestion Blues in both the 112 Rebel cabs and I really like them better that way. I also tried a pair of Celestion Golds in the Rivera but so far I've taken one out and may take the other out as well. They do add sparkle and definition to the Fandango but they lack the depth and breadth and the breathy woof that I loved so much about that amp. Actually thinking about it now I think I've decided I will take the other one out.

Anybody looking for a pair of 8-Ohm Golds?

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:57 pm
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I don't really understand the level of vitriol some have about the fact that lots of people like Blues Juniors. It's sort of akin to pick-up truck or SUV drivers having disdain for people who drive compact cars.

Some people like them. Some don't. What I see a lot of in most Blues Junior threads is people writing dissertations about why it's dumb to enjoy a Blues Junior. This doesn't make much sense. Why are some so bent about this?

I happen to have both a Blues Junior and a compact car. I'm just that sort of person. I buy what is simple, and affordable, and enjoyable, and gets the job done.


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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:29 pm
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mw13068 wrote:
I don't really understand the level of vitriol some have about the fact that lots of people like Blues Juniors. It's sort of akin to pick-up truck or SUV drivers having disdain for people who drive compact cars.


Debating the sonic merits of an amp is so subjective that I no longer even bother to row that boat.

But reliability and durability are quantifiable paradigms deserving of discussion. For those hobbyists who play their instrument a hour or two a week it likely doesn't matter to them that an amp they own won't last longer than the motor vehicle they drive. But working musicians wager their reputations every time they take the stage and betting the ranch on marginal gear (from any company) is a sure road to professional extinction.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:42 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
But reliability and durability are quantifiable paradigms deserving of discussion.


Is there a source of amp repair frequency data somewhere, like there are for cars and trucks? That would be some interesting data. Where is it quantified? I wonder how it would stoke the old solid state vs. tube amp wars. :)

If I were going by reliability and durability, my solid state Peavey amp would be the only amp to leave the house. That thing will be working until the end of days.


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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:59 pm
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mw13068 wrote:
Is there a source of amp repair frequency data somewhere, like there are for cars and trucks? That would be some interesting data.


Gawd I wish there were!

But one look at the broken amps stacked floor-to-ceiling at my amp tech's shop -- who is the sole Fender-certified warranty service specialist for a three-county area -- gives me a pretty reliable method of differentiating between which amp model is a "stage king" and which is a "hangar queen".

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:21 am
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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:50 am
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As someone considering a Blues Junior, I've been following this thread very closely: lots of interesting stuff to absorb and I've learned quite a bit.

The basic gist seems to be "the Mexican stuff isn't very reliable, get an American made Fender instead". On the surface, that makes sense (if you buy into the theory that American Made = Quality), but I've read that the American amps are build with similar components as the Mexi-made stuff. So, doesn't that mean you'll have issues with those Princeton and Deluxe Reverb Reissues, as well? And to take it a step further, maybe I should just pass on Fender amps as a whole and look to another maker?

I've played guitar for 30 years. I've played with full stacks with hundreds of watts on stage. I own(ed) vintage guitars and gear. What I'm trying to say is, I'm not a newbie who doesn't have the ear (or appreciation) for the good stuff. But, I also have a wife, two small children, and a mortgage- which is why I just got a MIM Strat and am looking at a Blues Junior. I can't afford (or justify) spending thousands of dollars on gear. If I wait and save up for it, my fingers will be so arthritic I won't be able to enjoy it. The Strat isn't the nicest guitar I've ever owned, but it's built very well and I enjoy playing it. Will I find a similar experience with a Blues Junior amp, or am I gonna be dropping five hundred bucks on a horrible sounding piece of junk that will conk out on me in six weeks?

Steven


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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:07 am
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SMW17,

All that you will get here is anecdotal evidence. Not every BJr that is in a shop needs repair. Some might be there for mods, some only need tubes, etc. One of the best selling amps in the world, you would naturally see more of them everywhere including shops, common sense. If the failure rate was the same for BJr, DRRI, HRDlx, you would of course see far more of the better selling amps because there are many more of them out there, still no indication of anything about reliability. Seems like simple math to me, but others can get 5 from 2 + 2, and read their own bias into what they see.

No, facts have little to do with many opinions here, and yes, the PR and DR have their fair share of problems. And a vintage amp isn't going to fare much better, considering that they almost always need filter caps and resistors and tubes to operate properly (that is something many fail to mention with their biased view). But if you want/need the same for a BJr, suddenly a different story.

Not one of the detractors here has owned a BJr that crapped out on them, and reliability isn't usually mentioned first, but after the tone debate goes nowhere. Then, it's always that they "see" a lot of them in a shop, or "heard" a story of someone else's amp (anecdotal). Yet, a vintage amp can be purchased, then "fixed up" and it's OK? Thousands use their BJr with no problems at all, gigging and home use. To further cloud the issue, some will lump the HRDlx, BJr, HRDvl, BDlx, BDvl all together as if they all have the same issues. Maybe to them it makes their opinion of one amp seem more valid?

It seems that the majority of problems with all amps are the tubes. Especially a problem when new lately, likely caused from rough shipping (seems to be the case). Yes, every amp model has had failures when new, including the DRRI. :idea:

Just a thought; wondering what percentage of the population is represented on a forum like this, .01 percent? Hardly a good representative sample, whatever the number. In fact, I would say that all forums about amps, added together, still won't give a fair representation of the whole. Example, very few will get on a forum and brag about their amp, compared to the number who complain about a problem that they have.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:51 am
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shimmilou wrote:
And a vintage amp isn't going to fare much better, considering that they almost always need filter caps and resistors and tubes to operate properly (that is something many fail to mention with their biased view).


Speaking for myself, that's not true and you bloody well know it.

The very first thing I do after congratulating the new owner of a vintage piece who posts an account and a pic or two of his "score" on this forum is to recommend he open it up and inspect it for potential problems and safety issues OR take it to someone who can competently perform this examination. And most of the rest of us old hands who own these amps (Supro, Rebelsoul, Cedarblues, etc) insist on the same protocols.

Sure -- any electro-mechanical device has the potential for problems. But the percentage for the same recurring issues is a helluva lot higher for gear built with the same marginal components to the same moribund design specs.

I wouldn't trade my '68 Deluxe Reverb for a dozen brand new BJr's with full factory warranties plus a $500 gift card from the Fender Lifestyles store.

Don't believe me?

Bring those twelve amps and a video crew to my home. PM me for directions then post the tape on youtube.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:56 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
I wouldn't trade my '68 Deluxe Reverb for a dozen brand new BJr's with full factory warranties plus a $500 gift card from the Fender Lifestyles store.
Arjay


Would a dozen brand new DRRIs with full factory warranties make you hand over the '68 Deluxe Reverb? :wink:

Seriously though, I've got a 1957 Gibson ES-175 and a 1960 Silvertone amp, so I'm aware of how good vintage stuff is and how much trouble/expense it can be to maintain. I guess the point I'm trying to get at is if the reissue Fender amps are being built with similar components, materials, methods, etc. as their MIM brethren, is it really worth spending 2+ times the money for one of them? Unless you are dying for the Deluxe Reverb amp tones, is a reissue model gonna be that much more reliable than a Blues Junior? Believe me, I'm not trying to be flippant here, I'm just trying to decide if I'm gonna be better off with a new Blues Junior or try to find a decent used DRRI for around the same price?


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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:33 am
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A substantial problem with all contemporary Fender amps is the use of RoHS-compliant solder. Rivaling that issue is the use of economy-minded OEM tubes. The all-new models (HR's, VM's, FM's, etc) all seem to suffer from too many shortcuts taken during the design and engineering phase -- the re-issues, less so. However, the re-issue's likewise suffer from the OEM budget-bottle syndrome.

Regardless, it's always been my desire that anybody who chooses a new Fender product (irrespective of the particular model) enjoys a lengthy-and-satisfactory experience with it -- perhaps some of the bitching on this forum helps to improve the entire product line to help make that so.

Would I swap my '68 DR for a dozen DR re-issues?

In all candor, that would be a tough call......

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:04 pm
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Here's an example. I bought a 100 watt Twin new in 1976. It was my main gigging amp for over 30 years. I reluctantly sold it about a year and a half ago because it was just too heavy and loud for what I do now. In that 30+ years it was recapped once. Not because it was giving me problems just for routine maintenance. Never had a problem with it over countless gigs and rehearsals 30 years! The tubes were original except for a preamp tube that went microphonic. Not a bad track record. My HRDlx also bought new, lasted three gigs. It blew a filter cap, smoked the 5 watt resistors, channel switched by itself, had bad solder joints on the tube sockets. The whole nine yards. All in three months. It was a constant headache. These amps are popular because of their price point and thay say Fender on them. A name we all know and trust.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:13 pm
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63supro wrote:
These amps are popular because of their price point and thay say Fender on them. A name we all know and trust.

That is exactly the reason (and dare I say possibly the only reason outside of size and weight) that they are so popular. They are inexpensive tube amps with the Fender name. How could they not be popular when the company prices them so much cheaper than their better amps?

The real question that needs to be asked is this: How is it possible that the people who champion these amps cannot seem to fathom that there must be a difference in the way they're made compared to the more expensive amplifiers? How is it possible that these proponents cannot get it into their heads that the only way Fender can make them so cheaply is by making them cheaply? By using lesser grade parts? by cutting corners? Why is it so hard for people to understand this? Do they think that premium high grade amplifiers grow on trees and that it's simply a matter of finding someone who will grow them for less?

The other question that has to be asked is this: How is it even conceivable that anyone could come right out and say "after the elitists lose the tone debate"? Excuse me? Lost the tone debate? (shaking head) I don't even know how to respond to that because I don't live in a mental institution so I don't know how to relate on that level. I'm sorry if that sounds condescending but there's no other (friendly) way to convey it. It's just proposterous. Lost the tone debate. Yah, right. Give your head a shake ump, your eyes are stuck.

The think that keeps me scratching my head is how some people, not necessarily on this particular thread, just rave and rave about these amps like they're really quite good. News flash. They're economical, entry level amps and yes they may do alright for the price but they're not great little amps. I can't believe how many times I've seen people say they're "great little amps". There is nothing "great" about them. They are barely adequate. "Greatness" in an amplifier is not something you get for 500 bones. Ever. Grab a brain people. In relation to cars, "greatness" is a term that would be given to a Ferarri 599 Fiorano but that's not what you are driving. You are the proud owner of a Kia Rio. Sure it may suit your needs for the moment but just where do you get off saying it's "great"? Did you spend the money for "great"? No. You bought economical entry level and that's what you got, nothing more. The way some people rave about these amps you'd think they were describing a Dumble Overdrive Special for crying out loud. You're the ones who need to "give it a rest". Not us.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:33 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
And a vintage amp isn't going to fare much better, considering that they almost always need filter caps and resistors and tubes to operate properly (that is something many fail to mention with their biased view).


Speaking for myself, that's not true and you bloody well know it....


Sorry my friend, yes you do advise them when they bought an amp. There is usually no such warning though when the advice to get a used DRRI over a new BJr is given, that's what I was referring to. And we still know nothing of failure rates.

BMW-KTM wrote:
...The real question that needs to be asked is this: How is it possible that the people who champion these amps cannot seem to fathom that there must be a difference in the way they're made compared to the more expensive amplifiers? How is it possible that these proponents cannot get it into their heads that the only way Fender can make them so cheaply is by making them cheaply? By using lesser grade parts? by cutting corners? Why is it so hard for people to understand this? Do they think that premium high grade amplifiers grow on trees and that it's simply a matter of finding someone who will grow them for less?

The other question that has to be asked is this: How is it even conceivable that anyone could come right out and say "after the elitists lose the tone debate"?...


The first answer is; the differences have been acknowledged, no one is denying that they are less expensive amps. The same applies to Egnater, Vox, whoever makes an amp. Some of the same detractors praise the cheaper made amps of companies like Egnater, yet the same doesn't apply to a BJr? Please. :? Those that like the BJr know that it is a "great little amp", but not one has claimed that it is the same or better than much more expensive amps. The second answer is, that no one said "lose the tone debate", but what was said is when the "tone debate goes nowhere", as in each taste for tone is different, some like some don't, so that debate goes nowhere. Starts off with the tone bashing, then the fantasy failure rates start to show, questioning the "reliability" based on seeing many amps (false assumptions).

The BJr wasn't my first amp, I have owned dozens of amps, and I have heard hundreds of amps, so that whole "all they have" doesn't apply either, I like the tone, and I realize the amp is not a DRRI. :o I believe that everyone else realizes this......well, except for those who don't like the amp. BJr owners can read and write and everything, including the ability to understand that they aren't getting a $1200 amp for $500. :wink:

Yes, I bought a Chinese made Egnater, realizing that it wasn't the same as the US made versions, but I still think that it is a great little amp, sounds great. I did lose a preamp tube about 2 days after buying it, replaced the tube, waiting for a replacement (for three weeks so far :( ). Opening the amp reveals the same construction methods used by Fender, no different. No illusions here about the Egnater or the BJr. :D

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:51 pm
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I'll tell you what, my Egnater is built and designed light years ahead of my HRDlx was. No doubt. Better boards, heat sinks, vertical tubes so the heat isn't a problem. I've had zero reliability problems. So don't go lumping Egnater, Vox etc in the same category as the HRD series amps. I've looked inside mine and the build quality is outstanding. It's been gigged heavily and never babied. Its been rock solid. Egnater wins award after award for design and tone. My HRDlx was a unreliable shitbox like many others in the series. The most reliable in the lower end amps seem to be the little Champs like the XD Vibro Champ and the 600.

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