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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:35 am
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63supro wrote:
Gear needs to be reliable no matter if you play five nights a week on a stage or once a week in your garage or bedroom.


+1!

Red-plated output bottles, anybody......?

:lol:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:46 am
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LOL elitist rubbish?? I only speak from experience, having owned a BJ, Blues Deluxe, HR DeVille, once I graduated I never looked back...

It's very simple, put a BJ next to a DR on stage and then we can talk :) the BJ works great in the bedroom, that's all I have to say about that.


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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:58 am
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Well, at least rubbish. Graduated? :lol: I feel like such an underclassman. :(

Oranges and apples, Volkswagen and Chevy, BJr and DRRI. Twice the price, I don't get it, who would compare the BJr to a DRRI? :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:07 am
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shimmilou wrote:
I feel like such an underclassman. :(

It's ok buddy, we were all there once... :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:47 am
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shimmilou wrote:
... Twice the price, I don't get it, who would compare the BJr to a DRRI? :roll:

Well .... now that you brought that up let's take a little look see shall we?

I bought my Blues junior in 2002 from Long & McQuade for what I thought at the time to be a fairly low price of $680. Since the decline of the American greenback the price in Cannuck bucks for a new BJ has dropped to around $600 or so however that does not confront me personally because my experience with the BJ is over.

In 2002 BillM was still relatively early on in his BJ modding business. The parts he used cost more then than the lesser quality parts he uses now. The massive Trace Elliot output transformer was over $250 which I happened to luck out on and got it for $199. I see they've gone up in price now to $300. The other parts added up to about $60. On top of that I had to pay the international border crap which came out to about $50 or so including all shipping costs. $680 + $310 = $990. At that time a DRRI was $1,200. For another $210 I could have bought a DRRI. Oh, wait. I forgot. I also paid $140 for a Celestion Vintage 30 so let’s drop that to $70.

Today the BJ runs about $600 and the BillM parts have dropped to about $135 plus the usual shipping and border crap which will still be around $50. That’s almost $800. A new DRRI now runs for $995 so you are still within about $200 or so. Under $50 if you also swap out the speaker. It's actually even closer now with the lesser parts than it was before.

The BJ is still a disappointing amplifier even after the BillM improvements and yes, they are definite improvements, they’re just not enough.

For any Canadian the BJ just doesn’t make sense and for most Americans too. $200 is just not enough of a savings when you consider the inferior amp you end up with and that doesn't include a speaker or better tubes.

Wait, I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking it’s not fair to take the BillM mods into account because some people will just leave their BJ’s bone stock. You might think that but for most people you’d be wrong. All you have to do is look at BillM’s business. He has got a thriving little cottage industry going on there. I read on another form somewhere that he’s now selling more than 500 upgrade kits a year. People from all over the world now are going to him to address the amp’s shortcomings. Clearly, it’s not just a few tone snobs like me who are looking to improve the thing. Clearly there are thousands of BJ owners who have gone to the trouble and expense to mod. God only knows how many there are who know their BJ’s are less than stellar but don’t yet know what to do about it.
shimmilou wrote:
... who would compare the BJr to a DRRI?

Anyone with the courage to look at it without bias would. In fact one would be remiss not to.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:03 pm
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BTW, those were not intended as fight'n words.... Just a debate.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:20 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
BTW, those were not intended as fight'n words.... Just a debate.


+1

As techs and "techno-geeks" we're compelled to examine facts as they relate to amps and any comparision of same then weigh those facts against personal experience and available anecdotal evidence.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:30 pm
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I should also point out that mine was a cream board BJ. The second most reliable version Fender made. The most reliable was the first generation green board BJ. The new BJ's are several versions later and have been cheapened and have the added worry of the reliability issues that I was fortunate enough to miss out on which is where 63Supro's experiences come in.

I know there are a lot of people who won't heed the cautions posted here and will still go out and buy a Blues Junior. My advise? If you really feel you must then please for the love of all that is Holy get yourself a used one made prior to 2003 (cream) and preferably prior to 2000 (green). All subsequent versions got progressively worse. Remember, 2002 and earlier.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:05 pm
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I gave up on the HRD series altogether and current Fender production amps in general. A 40 year love affair down the hole. It's not a Mexico/China/ Indonesia thing either. You would think a company would move forward and not make gear with a planned obsolescence. This new stuff is not designed for the long haul or even real working musicians unless you get into the overpriced custom shop stuff. Even the reissues are using cheap Taiwanese Illinois filter caps. Replace them every 10 years instead of 30. The only thing saving the reissues are better boards and tube sockets mounted to the chassis. People here can say what they want about Egnater, but after a year and a half of pretty hard use involving gigging, practice and rehearsal, I've had zero problems, nada, zip. My HRDlx, three gigs and six rehearsals and into the shop it went.

Like I've always said, when someone especially a casual player buys a piece of gear, no matter who makes it, they think it's the greatest thing on the entire planet. They'll defend it to the death. What's misunderstood all the time on this forum is that the people who gig on a regular basis are only trying to help the players that don't through years of experience and get the best reliable value for your hard earned buck. Right away, some of the newer guys or casual players get all defensive. How dare you make remarks about MY amp. Then a few months down the road you hear, I love my HRD... but it does this or that can you help me? My HRDxxx died today Help! We warned you you didn't heed the warnings or do your research on other forums, which by the way make me, BMW ans Arjay look HRD fans dog those amps way worse than we ever do. I believe FMIC make a huge profit on the lower end amps. Way more than the reissues that are made in the States. Especially the solid state amps that when they break they don't even bother repairing them. They just replace them.

Sorry about the rant, but lay off the name calling and personal attacks. Our rants may be what pushed the improvements on the HRD III series. Enjoy!!

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:09 pm
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Sure, nothing wrong with some good factual comparisons BMW-KTM, but again, no contest between a DRRI and BJr, that's still apples and oranges comparison. You can't mod an apple into an orange. And a highly modded BJr compared to a stock DRRI is even stretching things a bit further. The BJr would be much more comparable to a Vox AC15.

Well, if impartiality and fairness are the goal, you grossly overpaid for the amp to begin with compared to what the majority of people pay. Odd that the BJr is 50% more cost for you, but the DRRI is the same as we pay. :? I paid $400 for my BJr new, the marked price was $420 ('05?). They now sell for $499 new. I paid less than $50 for the Billm mods. I liked the sound to begin with, and the mods added versatility and better tone control. In other words, made a good amp better. Even after mods, my BJr is less than half the cost of a DRRI (and still sounds nothing alike).

The BJr is not a DRRI, and mods won't make it that either. If you try to get a DR sound from a BJr, you will be sorely disappointed. That might be the issue with anyone that was under the false impression that a few mods could change the amp into something entirely different. I think Billm is very clear about the mods and what they do.

To show the difference in tastes, I prefer the later versions of BJr (after '01), as the reverb circuit was "fixed" and they have a brighter sound. Go figure, huh? :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:36 pm
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You know what, shimmi? You absolutley right. I guess I haven't looked at BJ's in the stores for some time and the price has come down significantly since I last did. Last year they were $600, now they're $500 according to L&M website. If you paid less than $50 for the BillM mods then you didn't do the O/T mod which was the most important mod after the tone stack mod. IMO the tone stack and O/T mods should have been bundled together. Bill should never have sold them as separate mods because the amp doesn't fully realize the potential of the tone stack mod without the bigger O/T. Do yourself a favour and do the O/T mod. The new O/Ts he's selling now are way cheaper than the monster he had me buy. I think he felt they may have been overkill. You'll find the amp breathes a ton better on the bottom with the bigger O/T. Still won't get you into 6L6 territory but you will notice a difference. Best part is there's no soldering so you don't have to worry about damaging the delicate traces on those newer PCBs. You may have to drill new mounting holes in the chassis depending on what speaker you're using. I was using the V30 and it had a deeper cone and a much larger diameter magnet and the new O/T was in conflict so I relocated it about 6". There was lots of length on the harness so it wasn't an issue.

OK so that increases the price difference by a hundred bucks and I can see how that might make a difference to some but I still recommend saving a little longer and getting a better amp.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:06 pm
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Yeah, there are so many options, and I've considered a full-blown modded BJr, but the low cost and decent sound to begin with, fit the bill for me. The only mod that I feel the amp really "needs" is the adjustable bias, I did that and the tone stack and still dig the $hit out of the amp.

I agree, get as much amp as you can afford, waiting if necessary. For me, the BJr is just another in a long line of amps that I've owned, and it does what it does, as well as, or better than other comparable models. It seemed perfect for what I wanted at the time, and is still a terrific grab-and-go amp. That is all that I wanted, a small portable that sounds good, the BJr delivers.

And the color change for the board was not to a thinner board, the same size/thickness board was used for the version II, and actually there were some cream board amps made in USA shortly before moving production to Mex, continuing with the exact same parts after the move. I guess that you could say that the stock components are cheap ones, but they didn't change when production was moved to Mex, same parts. Really, much of the amp was already being MIM from the start. Maybe more like AIA instead of MIA.

The BJr is comparable in quality and reliability to any similar amp out there (all amps have tube issues at times). And despite the magical claims, the Egnater amps use the exact same construction methods as the HRDlx, both have chassis mounted output tube sockets soldered to a circuit board, and both have preamp sockets board mounted, no difference. Check the Egnater forum and you'll see that they aren't quite as magical as some would have you believe, they have their fair share of issues (mine is fine though). And the construction methods for the Fenders haven't changed from the US version to the Mex version, still the same. :wink:

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Last edited by shimmilou on Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:19 pm
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The way BillM explained it to me back when I was going through all that, he said the cream board itself was the same quality as the green board and so was the circuitry, meaning all the components and values were exactly the same. He did say though that the traces on the green boards were a few micro (somethings) thicker and would withstand a little more misuse with the iron for the do-it-yourselfer ... like me. He also said they could withstand a little more vibrational abuse as well. Something to do with a sturdier mounting system for the tube sockets. There were a few other much less significant differences between the green and cream board amps but I forget most of that stuff now. I just logged onto his site just this moment. I am amazed at how much the site has changed and seems to keep changing. Looks like he has really condensed the historical changes information. I recall there being more detail than that. He does mention they are identical electronically but he doesn't mention how they differ physically.

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:39 pm
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Shimmi, check this out.

Here's a pic of Bill's 2 new options for the O/T mod sitting next to a stock O/T:
Image

And here's the Trace Elliot O/T he had me buy:
Image


:lol: :lol: :lol:
What a freakin' MONSTER, huh?

You can see the two original O/T mounting holes to the left of the Trace O/T

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Post subject: Re: Does anybody NOT like the Blues Junior.
Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:08 pm
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Thinner traces are definitely a possibility, the board was redesigned for the reverb circuit, just before the move, and they may have shaved a couple of more pennies from their cost by using thinner traces. I have drilled and soldered BJr II circuit board traces and didn't feel as if they were very delicate, but I can see that they could be damaged if not careful, especially the small, one-sided pads. To install the adjustable bias, drilling through a solder pad is one way to do it, and I haven't had any pads lift or move.

Maybe the improvement mentioned about the tube mounting were the grommets added to the tube retainer so that the tubes were isolated from the retainer. :idea:

Both the old and new Billm sites are up, and some info is at the old site, not the new. Lots of great reading in the comments at the end of many pages. Their are links on each site to each other.

:shock: Just saw your post when I hit preview. Huge difference! Definitely a monster. It seems that this is in the area of lust rather than a tone quest? :lol: To me, the octal conversion to 6V6 (no transformer changes needed), would be the mod to really change the sound of the amp to something much more comparable to a DRRI, aside from the cab/speaker differences. I guess that the Rebel 20 and 30 are desirable for their ability to blend and choose the EL84 and 6V6.

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