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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:30 am
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Hi Guys, back from Cyprus, very hot there and we are not used to it. Sea was like a hot bath at times!!
I have just ordered 4 x 6L6GC winged C from Watford Valves. The price has gone up another £1.00 each so thats 2 rises in less than a month.
Thanks for the bias info from shimmilou and bluesstrattone, you have been very helpful.
just gotta wait for the winged C s now :)
cheers
mel


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:04 am
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Location: deep down in Florida...
Cyprus... the island of Aphrodite :)

You'll love the new tubes! Wish I kept the pair I had, I left 'em in an amp I sold :(


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:10 am
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Aphrodite's birthplace was apparently in the south, west coast i think.
we were in the north, the Turkish ruled bit. Supposed to be what the Greek part was like 30- 40 years ago : unspoilt. We were very aware that the Turks were prepared to defend their portion of the island : military camps and forbidden zones everywhere. But the people are so friendly, tourism is relatively new for them, there have only been package tours to the north for the last 10 years or so.
If anyone ever goes there, we were in Lapta, to the west of Kyrenia. I can recommend a sea front restaurant called "The Palms". You dine literally at the waters' edge. :)

Anyways back on topic, i will increase my bias to 70mA and see what it sounds like at this weekends' gigs. Should have the winged C s by middle next week.
Cheers from cold ol' England
Mel


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:15 am
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Never been to the Turkish side... back in the 80s you weren't allowed to go over there, but things are different now over there.


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:35 am
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Ok, new tubes fitted. Biased to 70mA. Interestingly the old tubes , original fender/groovetubes were biased at 70mA, but when the new winged Cs were powered up they only drew about 53mA ??
Played last night and it sounds great, thicker midlle, less top harshness and a tighter bass. result! :)
Query, the original Groovetubes had the winged C logo on them, but a different serial or batch number? not sure what that 4 digit number means. Would these have been the reissue Winged Cs that ppl say are not very good? Or maybe they are the same tube from the russian factory, but not matched very well hence the improvement.
the new "genuine" Winged Cs supplied by Watford Valves here in England have the test values of M/A 18 and M/AV 2.2, all 4 are the same.
The original GTs had soemthing like 7 White on them.
The top of the glass envelope does look different between the GTs and the Watford supplied winged Cs.
I know I am being pedantic :) , but can anyone enlighten me?
Cheers,
Mel


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:42 am
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It is normal for different brands of tubes to draw a different current at the same bias setting. This is why it is so important to check the bias when installing new tubes.

A "Winged C logo" on Groove Tubes? Can you post a picture of this?

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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 am
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Hi
I havent got a camera that will get close enough to take a asharp image and be able to read the print on the glass, sorry.
But it clearly has the winged C logo, 6L6GC,MADE IN RUSSIA,0850 printed on the glass. And then on the other side it has the GT logo and GT-6L6-SV on a paper label.
The logo printed onto the glass looks identical to the original winged Cs i have just put in my amp. Except the 4 figure number is different, I think its 0645 or something like that, cant tell as they are in the amp ! :)
For clarity, the packets the Watford supplied tubes came in clearly state "6L6GC-SVET ORIG WINGED C"
So, are these the same tubes?
From the improvement (to my tastes anyway) in clean tone, either they are and the GT tubes are faulty or not matched well. Or, they are not the same beasts and there in lies the reason for the improvement.


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:08 am
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Looks like something new. Apparently GT has stepped up and are producing/reproducing the "Winged C" tubes using the "SV" suffix, since the originals aren't made any more. The 6L6 SV wasn't shown on the GT site, but other "-SV" tubes were shown. Thanks for the info dawntreader, I'll have to check some of these tubes to see what they're all about. I still have yet to check some of the new GE reproductions by GT. Man, GT just gets better all the time. Glad that your amp is rockin' again. :)

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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:36 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Man, GT just gets better all the time. Glad that your amp is rockin' again. :)

Better?? The OP mentioned how there was an improvement with the new original Winged C compared to the reissue Winged C from GT... you won't see me spending any money on anything with a GT label on it! :wink:

dawntreader wrote:
From the improvement (to my tastes anyway) in clean tone, either they are and the GT tubes are faulty or not matched well. Or, they are not the same beasts and there in lies the reason for the improvement.


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:10 am
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GT the company. Different strokes, that's cool. 8) I only assumed that the GTs with the Winged C logo were made for/by GT, they might simply be tested and relabeled Winged Cs for all we know (pics might help), the 6L6 -SV wasn't listed on the GT site. And, the new tubes could also be a different "hardness", or rating than the originals, definitely a possibility accounting for the difference in sound. The fact that the current draw on the new tubes was lower than the current draw of the originals, tells me that the new tubes have a different rating. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:37 am
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Its the usual horses for courses argument I think, one man's meat etc.
I prefer the sound of the Watford Valves supplied Winged Cs , mainly cos I have been looking for a mellow/jazz sort of clean tone for my rhythm. I can use my bridge pup a bit now, whereas with the GT Winged Cs it was just to thin and piercing.
Cheers,
Mel
http://www.dawntreadermusic.co.uk


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:49 am
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That is what I mean about the different current draw for each set of tubes at the same bias setting, this means that the new tubes have a different rating than the originals. The "7 White" rating ("4 to 7 White") is a good overall tube that is not too clean or too driven, and a "8 to 10 Red" rating is for cleaner sound, while the "1 to 3 Blue" rating is for earlier breakup. I prefer the Red labels, and have found the white labels to be kind of bland in comparison. Missed details like this about tubes can, and often do lead to the wrong conclusions. :idea:

BTW, the "thin" sound that you had with the original tubes might be alleviated with an increase in the bias to around 80 mV or higher. This thread is a great example of why it is important to check/set the bias when possible, even on a new amp.

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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:57 am
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shimmilou, the factory setting for the original GT tubes was 60mV. I have biased the new tubes at 70mV cos I play mainly with a clean tone but would like them to last a while. We dont play enough gigs to allow a new set every year.
I read somewhere the other day that Brian May's (of Queen) amp is biased so hot that tubes last only a coupla months.
80mV?? I can get the bias to adjust to 100mV but how long the tubes gonna last :o
Cheers,
mel


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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:32 am
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I would say that 50% of the tubes rating is a minimum setting, and this would result in long tube life. The 6L6 is rated at 30 watts, 50% of that is 15 watts. In order to get 15 watts idle from each output tube in your amp would require a minimum of 75 mV at the test point with 465 Plate volts.

A little overlap is usually beneficial to eliminate the crossover distortion caused from too low a bias setting. So considering everything, 80 mV would still be running the tubes very cool at about 16 watts. Around 70% of the tubes rating is on the hot side, and for a 30 watt tube this would be 21 watts. For 21 watts of idle, the test point reading would be about 100 mV.

Remember, it has to do with the Plate voltage AND the tube rating. The mV reading for one amp doesn't necessarily transfer to another amp. If Brian May has the exact same amp as you, and is running at 80 mV at the test point, his amp is still running on the cool side. (I would guess that if he is running them really hot, his test point reading would exceed 100 mV) :idea:

But, if your amp sounds good to you, it's good where it is, but definitely running on the cool side.

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Post subject: Re: Winged C ?
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:04 am
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Thanks for your expertise and advice. I will see how I get on tonewise over the next few gigs, but its nice to know I can still raise the bias a bit if need be.
Some more bookings would be nice, this time last year our diary was looking healthy. I have nothing for nov/dec and only a few for next year. A sign of the times I think :(
It's agood job I am not a pro.
Cheers
Mel


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