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Post subject: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:25 am
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I have a 30 day return policy on a new Hot Rod Deluxe III. I was initially drawn to the Deluxe VM and had decided on buying it. While waiting for the sales person to come back and ring me up I noticed the Hot Rod. I ended up with the Hot Rod and am having second thoughts. The VM is very familiar to me control wise. The Hot Rod is taking me time to adjust (literally). I haven't shopped for or researched any amps lately. I just knew I needed @40 watts to play in a new project. I'm going back to the music store today to play the VM again. Anybody have any experience between these two amps?


EDIT: Oh, and I'm playing lead in an original pop/light rock band. Any practical knowledge on either of these two amps is appreciated.

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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:54 pm
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Seems that you are leaning towards the VM? Take the HRDlx back to the store, plug it in next to the VM, and play both with the same guitar to compare the sound (preferably early or when store is quiet). The VM is more solid state in the preamp section, the HRDlx is all tube preamp, so the two will have some voicing differences, but a side-by-side comparison is the best way to know. Then, just take home the one that you like the most.

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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:16 pm
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Good advice shimmilou. I didn't make it to the music store today... I'm just obsessing (hate it when I do that). It's taking me time to get used to the Hot Rod Deluxe. I still haven't used it in real world conditions, so it's easy to trick my ears and brain into thinking whatever it is I'm hearing. Side by side is really the only way to be objective enough.

Some valid (or not so valid) points to consider are...
1. I use very light drive and the VM is supposed to be able to really crank the drive. If needed I have a BigMuff Pi pedal.
2. I already have a nice Carbon Copy delay I'm running through the effects loop working fine. No need for the built in delay of the VM.
3. Chorus would be nice I suppose. Never really used it.
4. Tremolo I would never use.
5. The VM is 100 bucks more (and I don't have the cash at the moment)
6. Maybe the Hot Rod being all tube will take pedals better??
7. I like the appearance of the Hot Rod better, handle as well (always disliked the strap handles - just very uncomfortable for me. The HRDX has a nicer handle IMO)
8. The Hot Rod has recently been upgraded. The VM is on Clearance (wonder why??)
9. If something does go faulty on the Hot Rod, seems the repair techs are familiar enough with the model. (not trying to start a flame thread - just an observation)
10. I like the new footswitch on the HRDXIII

</obsession>

Now which way does it seem I'm leaning... hahaha :shock:

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'13 Standard Strat
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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:14 pm
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HRDlx! :lol:

Maybe? You do already have it, and it does take pedals very well. I don't have any experience with the VM, but I do have a HRDlx II, so I am biased toward the HRDlx III. I don't really care for any of the Fender amps with built-in effects. You have already done some preamp tube swapping in your HRDlx, did you get a good arrangement for decent clean and drive channel sound? I can't say enough about the GT12AX7-C preamp tubes that I use in mine, they really made the drive channel sound pretty darned good.

I used to like to use pedals on the clean channel as I didn't care for the drive channel, but now with the right tubes I can get a nice drive channel sound as well as great clean, and I don't use any pedals with the HRDlx, just the foot switch. IMO, once you get accustomed to the controls, and find the right tubes for your taste, the HRDlx will be a versatile sweet sounding amp, and the III should be the best version made yet. :)

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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:40 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
HRDlx! :lol:

You have already done some preamp tube swapping in your HRDlx, did you get a good arrangement for decent clean and drive channel sound?

I put a Tungsol 12AX7 in V2, then swapped it to V1. It sounds really nice there. It seems to have a really nice effect on the drive channel and amp overall.

I can't say enough about the GT12AX7-C preamp tubes that I use in mine, they really made the drive channel sound pretty darned good.

Who makes that one?

I used to like to use pedals on the clean channel as I didn't care for the drive channel, but now with the right tubes I can get a nice drive channel sound as well as great clean, and I don't use any pedals with the HRDlx, just the foot switch.

I'm there with ya. I initially was trying out a BadMonkey on the clean channel. After putting in the Tungsol and setting the drive and master up it's better than the pedal. The pedal does come pretty darn close... but then the "more drive" kicks everything up a notch and is very useful.

IMO, once you get accustomed to the controls, and find the right tubes for your taste, the HRDlx will be a versatile sweet sounding amp, and the III should be the best version made yet. :)


It really pays off to pay attention to this amp. It is a tube circuit after all. Sometimes I have a love/hate thing going on for them. When I get enough extra cash I'll swap the remaining pre-amp tubes for something different. I'm really not impressed with the Groove Tubes. There was one in particular that seemed to be causing some squealing. I did swap the inverter tube for a JAN-Philips 5751 I had laying around, but didn't like the way it took the punch out of the amp. So I have two out of the three originals and one very nice sounding Tungsol in there (V1). It really changes the sound of the drive. Which is strange to me because I thought that putting it in V2 would have more of an effect on that. I've learned to not question much with a tube amp. If it sounds good but doesn't make sense, just let it go... :lol:

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'12 Sonoran Acoustic - black (dated 10/31/12)
'13 Standard Strat
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Vox ac4c1-bl
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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:39 am
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gldfshkpr wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
...
I can't say enough about the GT12AX7-C preamp tubes that I use in mine, they really made the drive channel sound pretty darned good.

Who makes that one?...


The GT in front is for Groove Tubes, and the -C is Chinese. The Tung-Sol and the JAN that you've tried are both great tubes also. Glad to hear that you get some good sounds.

Different tubes will have a different affect depending on their position. Typically, V1 has the greatest affect on tone shaping, and works for both channels. Half of V2 is only used for the drive channel, and the other half is used for both channels, and it will have some affect on tone, just not as much as V1. And V3, being the pi, has little to no affect on tone, but has an affect on headroom/distortion, mostly due to the gain of the tube in that position. The output tubes will also have a big impact on tone and headroom/distortion.

You should really check the bias on the output tubes if you haven't already, it is known to be cold from the factory, and the sound of the amp can benefit from a bias adjust. If you can use a multimeter, you can easily set your own bias. Here is a good video showing how it is done, just scroll down to "#1. Fender Hot Rod Deville / Deluxe Bias".
http://www.eurotubes.com/euro-video.htm

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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:44 am
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shimmilou wrote:

You should really check the bias on the output tubes if you haven't already, it is known to be cold from the factory, and the sound of the amp can benefit from a bias adjust. If you can use a multimeter, you can easily set your own bias. Here is a good video showing how it is done, just scroll down to "#1. Fender Hot Rod Deville / Deluxe Bias".
http://www.eurotubes.com/euro-video.htm


Thanks for all the tips shimmilou! I'm checking the bias and come up with .068V on my multimeter (67.8mV) - According to justinholton.com this is a good starting point. Should I bias it hotter?

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'12 Sonoran Acoustic - black (dated 10/31/12)
'13 Standard Strat
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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:24 am
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I have mine at about 78 mV, which is right in the middle of the good range. Some people run theirs as high as 85 to 90 mV, or more depending on the type of tubes that they use. I would say that the JH recommendation is a minimum, and that anything up to 90 mV is still fine for the stock output tubes. Some tubes will only get to a certain point and will draw no more current, even with the bias pot turned all the way up.

The mV reading at the test point is the same as mA since it is across a 1-0hm resistor, so we will refer to mA, because the current is what we are concerned with. The Plate current times the Plate voltage will give you the Plate wattage at idle, and you typically would want the setting to be between 50% and 70% of the tube's Plate wattage rating. Just figure that the reading at the TP is the Cathode current for both tubes, divide the reading by two for the Cathode current of one tube. Each tube's Cathode current will be about 5 mA higher than the Plate current, so subtract 5 mA to get the Plate current. Then multiply the Plate current times the Plate voltage to see your actual idle wattage.

Example, 68 mV (same as 68 mA) at the test point is 34 mA Cathode current for one tube. Subtract 5 mA, for 29 mA Plate current. The Plate voltage is approx 430 VDC, times .029 (29 mA), is only about 13 watts idle for one tube. If the stock tubes are 25 watt tubes, this is just over 50%, a minimum. If the stock tubes are 30 watt tubes, this is well under 50% and may need to be increased. So, either way, 68 mV at the test point is on the cold side.

Try your tubes with the bias set in the range of 68 mV to 90 mV and find which setting sounds best to you. It is a trade off as cooler tubes generally last longer, and increasing the bias may sound better up to a point, and anything above that will just cook your tubes and shorten their life.

I noticed that in a previous post I labeled my HRDlx as II, but I have the HRDlx I, not the II. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:23 pm
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More excellent info shimmilou! Thank you. One more question. I understand adjusting the bias effects "tone"... and shortens or extends the life of the power amp tubes. But does adjusting the bias effect the preamp gain, power amp gain, both or neither?

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-Kirk

GUITARS
'12 Sonoran Acoustic - black (dated 10/31/12)
'13 Standard Strat
AMP
Vox ac4c1-bl
PEDALS
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Big Muff
Vox Stomplab 1G
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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:11 am
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The bias adjustment affects only the power amp (output tubes), and has no affect on the preamp. The bias is simply an "idle" setting, and has no affect on gain, but affects the point at which the output tubes will start to breakup (distort). Obviously, a lower bias gives more clean headroom, a higher bias will give earlier breakup.

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Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:28 am
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It's been 2 weeks since my last post here... I've settled into the HRDX quite nicely. I use the clean volume and drive volume at the same setting (around 4 for band rehearsal). The master gets put to 12 o'clock. Treb, bass and mid also get set to 12 o'clock for now.

Without pedals, the clean is good for pretty, full tones. Add some chorus and it makes a nice rhythm tone. Without pedals the drive channel is all about blues. It's tone is drier, more midrangie.

Now comes the fun part...pedals! For rhythm, the clean channel + overdrive (BigMuff in my case set to lowest gain). I then add a distortion pedal (BOSS OS-2 in my case) to push the rhythm sound into a lead drive.

If it's a soft, pretty and melodic tune, I use a chorus w/ modulation in the clean channel without distortion pedals.

I always use reverb and my carbon copy delay. So that's my setup and I'm sticking to it (for now) :mrgreen: .

I get compliments on my tone from my singer and passersbys. I like it just fine myself. I was struggling in the beginning with the EQ knobs and the drive channel. For blues and old rock type tones the drive channel comes in handy at the settings I described above (with and without pedals respectively). It really nails those tones. That's not what I'm playing in the band now, so the amp is capable of producing what I need as well. I'd say it can do Jazz--->Country on the clean channel. Blues--->Classic Rock on the drive channel and Rock--->Experimental--->Metal on the clean channel with the proper pedals.

Overall I'm very happy with the "decision". I never did get a chance to go back to the VM, but the HRDX is a solid foundation for me to build the tones I need at a price that allows my to pay the rent.

Thanks again shimmilou for your personal insights into the HRDX. I do plan on doing some tube swapping in the future, but for now it's all about rehearsing and gigging with what works.

_________________
-Kirk

GUITARS
'12 Sonoran Acoustic - black (dated 10/31/12)
'13 Standard Strat
AMP
Vox ac4c1-bl
PEDALS
Compressor
Big Muff
Vox Stomplab 1G
Carbon Copy Delay


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Profile
Post subject: Re: Decision '11 - Hot Rod Deluxe III vs Deluxe VM
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:24 am
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That is cooler than the other side of the pillow, gldfshkpr! Glad for you. 8)

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