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Post subject: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:15 am
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Hello All,

I recentley purchased a hotrod deville 212 III version, my main guitar is a Fender American Standard Tele,(custom shop pickups). So here's my issue, every post I read says the overdirve on this amp is pretty bad. I can definatley confirm, so I retubed with JJ's both preamp and power tubes, rebiased, bumped my mv up to about 70mv to run a little hotter. (60-90) safe zone per some good advice from the guys at Tube Depot. And I even went with some new speakers(G12H30/Vin30) hoping to get some more bottom end out of the amps 2nd channel.

Cleans are completey amazing!! better than before,(IMO) However the overdrive is still.... well, just nasty. So I give up, I know there are mods to fix this but I am reserved to change the amp in that way for fear of loosing the wonderful cleans.

If you have any input that may help me out I would appreciate it.

The only other issue I have with this amp is for whatever reason it sounds way too trebily when our band plays outdoors, I have adjusted my settings and cannot seem to dial in a decent smooth sound even while playing the neck pickup. It's like there is no in between, all treble or it's muddy. Could it be the Tele??

I am more concerned with the scond issue more than the first, If you have had a similar experiance please help!!

Thanks!


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:30 am
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In outdoor situations, all infinite-baffle combos (those cabs with open backs) fall on their face. To beef up the bottom end, try adding a bass-reflex extension enclosure -- preferably with a pair of 12's. The sealed-back cab will also project better in this situation.

As for the OD situation......if you have the clean channel tweaked to an optimum tone, ditch trying to use the fizz/more-fizz channel and go with some decent pedals up front instead.

HTH

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:42 am
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I apprecitae the quick response, could you elaborate a little on the bass-reflex extension enclosure? Would this be different that just an extension cab?

"fizz and more fizz" channel....lol. I love the description, it's perfectly accurate to describe the drive.


Thank you!

Shucky


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:07 pm
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I have had some good success with the GT12AX7-C for preamp tubes, they helped the drive channel sound in my HRDlx enough that I can use it now and it sounds much better than before. As far as the trebly sound, I think that is partly the JJs, they are weak on the low end and have lots of treble. Of course what Retroverbial said about the open back is probably most of the lack of low end. Shame that you didn't try the bias adjust with the original tubes before getting new ones and then adjusting, it does make a difference. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:51 am
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Thats interesting, I had read...or atleast I thought I read that the JJ's would give a little more bottom end. But, I am pretty new to this stuff so I am probably wrong. So, you guys don't think the tele with the hot pickups is some of the problem?

I do have a Reverned Double Agent, it has the Humbucker Bridge and P90 in the neck. But you know it too seems very trebily. I have to use the bass contour knob to get it to sound decent.

I would have never dreamed there would be so much to know about this stuff, to find your perfect tone... I have a feeling I'll be searching for a long time.

Also, any other reccomendations for tubes with more bottom end other than GT's? winged c, tung sol?

Again, thanks in advance!


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:25 am
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Did you in fact get more low-end with the JJs? :wink: Since the bias on these amps, with the original tubes, is known to be very cold from the factory, why not try the original tubes with the correct bias and see what a difference it makes. With the stock tubes, a bias setting of around 75 mV to 80 mV at the test point would be much better than the way they come from the factory. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:38 am
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Good point shimmilou, I may try the old tube's and rebias. thanks for your input!

Shucky


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:52 am
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BTW, I am a GT fan, although I admit that the stock 5881WXT in the HRDs, is kind of an odd tube, and I'm not even sure of whether or not they are a 30 watt tube, or 25, or something in between (who knows?), but they definitely benefit from increasing the factory bias, just as any tubes benefit from proper bias. But, I hear the same thing over and over from people with new amps, they change the tubes before even trying the bias, and then attribute the "better" sound to the new tubes, even though they have to adjust the bias with the new tubes. On the rare occasion that people do adjust the bias first, they are often surprised by the improvement, and find that they don't need to drink the "anti-GT" kool-ade afterall. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:41 am
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Why do you think it is that many people do not prefer the GT's? Are the quality standards not the same? Seems that most are made in Russia, I would think alot of these tubes probably come out of the same factory and are re-branded. I dont know, this is probably discussed on another forum.

I honestly did'nt think the GT's sounded bad, I just changed to the JJ's because everyone else was....l mean I noticed a little difference, more clarity maybe, but it seemed I lost a little warmth..possbily.

Maybe I'm too picky, but I want good bottom end, a good mid range and a top end sparkle. Maybe, I'll buy that Vox night train I've been wanting for a while, with a 12" celestion greenback. Seems like a good inexpensive duo.

Thanks,

Shucky


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:52 am
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As far as preference, the people who use the GT tubes with success aren't usually going to get on the internet and talk about it as much as the few who complain. The GTs are tested and relabeled tubes in most instances, although there are now more of the tubes exclusive to GT being made. There is a quite extensive testing procedure for GTs, so don't listen to those that sqwak simply relabeled, there is much more to it than that, you pay for the testing, not the label. The stock tubes in your amp are likely Sovteks, or maybe Chinese in the version III, instead of the Sovteks. But, the Sovteks are some of the most rugged new production tubes that you will find.

Like you said, it's trendy to change the tubes, makes people feel like a tech, or something. It is also trendy to bash something with little justification or experience with it (internet gurus). Many times, new amps do not have the bias set properly from the factory, that is a given. Most people don't understand bias, yet can easily pull tubes out and plug in new ones, so guess what gets done more often? Of course, hopefully figuring out that the new tubes have to be biased, without realizing that the bias could have been wrong to begin with on the originals.

Your description of the differences in sound of the two sets of tubes is just the way that I would describe it. The JJs have more clarity, maybe a little louder sound, while the stock GTs have a warmer, fuller sound. In this particular amp, you really have plenty of treble already, more isn't necessary.

Check to see which type your stock tubes are, Sovtek or Chinese probably. I wouldn't say that the Sovteks are the best, just a great overall tube, but certainly not "crap" as some claim. The Chinese tubes were definitely a little warmer, and a little smoother breakup than the Sovteks, and the Chinese definitely have the edge for a better drive channel sound. I have been running a set of GTs, Sovtek 5881WXT, for over 13 years and counting in my HRDlx. I have a set of GT 6L6-S waiting as replacement set. I have already tried the new set of tubes, and they sound great, but I just want to run the tubes that are in it as they sound great already. :)

There are many great tubes out there these days, but if you want the best, "good bottom end, a good mid range and a top end sparkle", GT and many other brands have this, but it all depends on what those words mean to you, as to me it might be different for my ears. You'll get lots of opinions on "the best" type of tube, mine for starters. :lol:

Check the GT site to find out more about their tubes, in particular the color/number rating system for breakup point, from early breakup to clean headroom.

http://www.groovetubes.com/

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:17 am
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shucky,

I ran my JJ's around 85mv at the bias test point. You'll get different answers all the way around. Shim loves GT's, I hate them. I'm not a huge fan of the HRDlx either. Mine was a total dog. I'd try jacking the JJ's up a bit. The JJ's really made a huge difference in my HRDlx. IMO as Arjay stated, the fizz/more fizz will never sound great. With a lot of fiddling, it can be passable, but because the EQ is shared, you'll always have to sacrifice your clean tone and vise versa. Here's a video.
http://www.eurotubes.com/euro-Fender-HRDV.htm

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:26 am
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Be careful, this is a Deville, and has much higher Plate voltage than a Deluxe (480 volts for Dvl, 430 volts for Dlx), but 85 mV would still be good (around 18 watts idle). 85 mV on the Deluxe would only be around 16 watts idle. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 212 III - New - Retubed
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:23 am
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looks like the jury's in on the bias being a little cold from the factory. I just played out this past weekend, outdoors and it wasnt too bad, but we were under a pavilion so I dont know if that helped or not. I heard 60 to 90mv is safe, I chose to stick with about 70.

I'm going to give it some time, let everything get a bit broke in...seeing as how the amp is only about 6 months old and the speakers are even newer.

I must say shimmlou, my first experiance with GT's was NOT a bad one, and I'm definatley going to try the rebias route when the JJ's come out. Maybe I'll run the GT's a little hotter than the JJ's, say 75, 80. See what happens! :)

Thanks to everyone, this helps alot!!


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