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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:40 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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That's not fair Arjay! Those amps were built by people who cared!

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:54 pm
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There will always be people who will never accept anything new from Fender, they are in the "if it's old, it's better than anything that's new" camp, a sub-cult of the "vintage or die" continuum. The real die-hards don't even accept the handwired reissues.

Fender isn't trying to please these people, and SHOULDN'T- since they make up the vast minority of people buying Fender product. They may be the majority in these clique-y online forums only, but not in the real world.

Bottom line: Brent Mason (or whoever- pick your favorite) playing thru a "noisy" Fender is still gonna' sound better than you playing thru your "church mouse quiet" vintage gear. (And this isn't a direct slight at the church mouse guy; I was just using his descriptor. Nice collection of amps, BTW.)


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:05 pm
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rjake wrote:
That's not fair Arjay! Those amps were built by people who cared!


You're right, and I did not intend for it to be.

I'm highlighting the glaring differences between a "Fender" amp and a Leo Fender Amp.

As for "Fender isn't trying to please these people, and SHOULDN'T- since they make up the vast minority of people buying Fender product. They may be the majority in these clique-y online forums only, but not in the real world.", I make it a habit not to waste my hard-earned money on mediocrity.

That said, two of the amps depicted in that photograph are re-issues......proof positive that there are still some products worthy of both their purchase price and the Fender name.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:24 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
, I make it a habit not to waste my hard-earned money on mediocrity.

.

Arjay


And again- mediocrity is in the hands of the player. Greg Koch can rock a SS far better than you can rock any of your vintage gear. This isn't personal- my point is the gear is mainly secondary to the player. As they say, "tone is in the hands."

You love your vintage & RI gear. Good for you. Others like the "modern" Fender stuff. Good for them. Tone is subjective; levels of noise tolerance are subjective. My point is, neither vintage nor new is "better"... except to YOU.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:42 pm
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ruger9 wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
, I make it a habit not to waste my hard-earned money on mediocrity.

.

Arjay


And again- mediocrity is in the hands of the player. Greg Koch can rock a SS far better than you can rock any of your vintage gear. This isn't personal- my point is the gear is mainly secondary to the player. As they say, "tone is in the hands."

You love your vintage & RI gear. Good for you. Others like the "modern" Fender stuff. Good for them. Tone is subjective; levels of noise tolerance are subjective. My point is, neither vintage nor new is "better"... except to YOU.



Do you know that for a fact? Have you ever heard Arjay perform? Just curious.

Tone is in the hands, but reliability is in the hands of the manufacturer. My HRDlx was so unreliable that it swore me off of anything new from Fender after being a loyal consumer for over 40 years. Fender is building landfill with the cheap components and it's sad QC. Hissing amps? Reverb pans that were never even wired from the vendor? Give me a break. It has nothing to do with anything that's new. I switched to Egnater and have run my rig pretty hard for almost 2 years without a hiccup. That little amp is built like a tank and well thought out. I ran my 76 Twin for over 30 years, same thing, no problems ever, not even tubes, my HRDdlx lasted three months. Nothing wrong with new if it's built and designed correctly. I made my living with my gear during the 70's and 80's. I couldn't get a dozen gigs out of my HRDlx. Gear my friend is not secondary to any professional player. :wink: What good is tone in the hands if you have nothing to amplify it? :lol: By the way, I have a 74 Champ that's never seen a repair shop. My HRDlx lived there. The comment to Arjay was unwarranted. He is only stating his opinion but he doesn't need me to defend him. :lol: By the way Arjay, like myself wasted our money on mediocrity. We both owned the HRDlx.

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:59 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:46 pm
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Location: Indy
ruger9 wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
, I make it a habit not to waste my hard-earned money on mediocrity.

.

Arjay


And again- mediocrity is in the hands of the player. Greg Koch can rock a SS far better than you can rock any of your vintage gear. This isn't personal- my point is the gear is mainly secondary to the player. As they say, "tone is in the hands."

You love your vintage & RI gear. Good for you. Others like the "modern" Fender stuff. Good for them. Tone is subjective; levels of noise tolerance are subjective. My point is, neither vintage nor new is "better"... except to YOU.


Arjay loves his vintage amps!
I buy modern amps for one reason, Versatility... IMO, they don't sound better than the old ones. Most production amps are cheaply made so we can afford them and the companies can pay their high salaries to the big wigs. The older ones are built like a tank, old technology tubes with old technology circuits and built to match. Leo Fender was a genius and his original designs are extremely hard to improve. I gutted a USA Blues Deluxe last year because I got tired of repairing it and created a turret board circuit based on a late 50's 5E5A Pro. It's probably my best sounding amp.

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The design of each element should be thought out in order to be easy to make and easy to repair.
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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:00 pm
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Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:37 pm
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It was not a personal insult. Greg Koch is a master of the instrument. Saying "you can't play as good as Greg Koch" is like saying "you can't hit as well as Derek Jeter."

And yes- we agree... ALL this is OPINION; that's my point. We are all entitled to our opinions, but they only apply to US. That's the definition of OPINION.

As for reliability, it's a little early to pass judgement on the SS22. I have heard no "horror stories" on reliability with the SS 60W to date; at least no more than can also be said about just about any other mass amp manufacturer. And also about the Fender RIs.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:15 pm
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There are guys playing in dives that are masters of the instrument that never got a break. You have no Idea how Arjay performs. I personally know dozens of musicians who are every bit as good and some even better than Koch. It's no big deal. For me, the hiss and noise was the deal breaker on the 22. The other issue was I found the same problem as GP magazine. It sounds like arse at anything over half volume but sound decent below that.

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:58 am
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Location: deep down in Florida...
Retroverbial wrote:
aghud wrote:
us wanting vintage amps but not prepared for the inherent noise


WTF?

Every amp I own is as quiet as a church mouse.

+1

My '73 SR is as quiet as my new DRRI, and both produce some of the best tones I can ask for :D

Why in the world would I want an amp known for noise issues and sounds nothing like either Fender amps I own?? And who exactly is this Greg Koch guy? One of the most anal guy when it comes to tone is EJ, doesn't he use a couple of these noisy vintage Fender amps? :mrgreen:


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:14 am
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None of my Fender gear hissed like that. As a matter of fact the only thing that wrong with any of my old hand wired Fender amps was a filter cap in my 20 year old BF Vibrolux Reverb. I'd still have it if it didn't get stolen in the late 80's. :x

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:16 pm
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:07 am
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Location: Europe
Ditto on the church mouses amp colection wow you spent some time and money on that lot..
do you gig with any ,if so which is your fave ???

i have to re-itterate my opinion about amp "Hiss" ... i dont give a hoot if it hisses so long as it does the job i ask of it. now if it makes a "BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMM" sound (like sombody has thier finger on the instument cord ) then yeh i would be pissed off to say the least.. i used to be a purist but i was cured of this by a engineer in a studio near cologne in germany (the germans are almoast fettish about clean sounds) he just stopped me dead in my tracks (no pun intended) and said just play you part and let me worry about the sound...it worked for me ..
Having said that there is one exeption that i find most embarrasing .. is when you have a loud amp and there is nothing happening.. like the singer /Artist is talking to the folks in the place and your amp is farting like a bastard and its loud as hell ...yeh then and only then would that bug me.
i love my new SS twin so much i call her "Marylin" cos she is blond and saxy with two big round things in front ..
:D :D :D :D :D :D
Btw .. i love this forum its nice to shoot it with some like minded people..
all the best guys
be lucky and stay healthy
cheers
"T"


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:49 pm
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aghud wrote:
i love my new SS twin so much i call her "Marylin" cos she is blond and saxy with two big round things in front.


:mrgreen:

I've named a few of my guitars but never an amp.

Rawk on!

8)

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:27 pm
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My conspiracy theory is as follows : If you turn off the power switch with these amps with 8-10 tubes a few times before you turn off the stand-by switch first, things will go wild and hiss will appear.

Here's my experience: I had the SS60w version since 2006, and I have heard the hiss with mine (more than Blues JR, Hot Rod series) but not too bad. The old-ear biasing method which consists of adjusting the bias pot until there is a sudden drop in the hiss has eliminated most of the hiss.I re-biased about 3 months after I bought it because I replaced the power tubes a V1 to V3 pre-amp tubes,

I had no complain with the hiss in mine until this spring. About a year ago, I have re-arranged my music room and my SS is under a shelf. To turn the amp on and off, I have to bend over to reach the back of my amp. For some reason, I have probably turned off my amp directly with the power switch in this last year (ie no standby for 40-60 seconds) 5-6 times because of this setup. Guess what? I never heard so much hiss....I have re-biased but it's not helping. I have more hiss when the FX loop is not engaged but when I have it engaged, the hiss is not so bad. This hiss is still not as high as the Custom Vibrolux Reverb and I still don't think it would bother anyone in a live situation, but if I was looking for hiss then I found it by foolishly shutting the amp without first putting it on standby .

Here is my reality check:
At the end of the day, I think the trade-off to more options and versatility in an all tube amp is hiss. The CVR was made to get creamy overdrive at reasonably stage volume...however at the "hiss" price. As some of you may know, the Mesa Boogie and other boutique amps business were built on the "versatility from a tube amp" aspect. Just google "mesa boogie hiss" and see what you find. So Fender is not better or worse, hiss is part of these super-versatile all tube-amps.

To get rid of hiss in recording, simply use or download any hiss-removal plugin. ALL recordings up until about the mid 80's has some level of guitar amp hiss..... put SRV's Little Wing through ear plugs and you'll ear ton of hiss....

Tweed Dog Steve
Woooof !


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:49 pm
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"Ear-bias", huh......?

Good luck with that.

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:03 pm
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He isn't the first, or only one here to use the "bias by ear" method. I don't agree with it, but I have a hybrid, cybernetic piece of equipment that can check the bias using any of three methods, current, crossover, and "by ear", all with equal precision, so I can satisfy most anyone's requirements for bias method. :mrgreen:

Image

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