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Post subject: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:51 am
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I bought a blonde Fender Super-Sonic 22 amp a little while ago, in fact it took me two to get one I was happy with :)

I absolutely love the tone of this amp, it is truly gorgeous ... and the perfect channel and voicing set-up for me ... its two different clean voices and the drive channel with it's blendable gains is spot on, and the reverb is heavenly !

There has been a lot of discussion about the SS22 in terms of 'noise' and mine is not entirely immune to this, so ... I wondered if this issue was by now better understood as it seems to have greatly marred the reputation of an otherwise superb amplifier.

Firstly .. the channel switching 'pop' :

I get loud pops switching between normal and burn channels just about every time, if I've got any signal running through the amp.
My "solution" ... mute the strings whenever I switch channels which avoids any pop .. is this normal 'as intended' behaviour or a technical issue ?


Secondly the background hiss :

A constant level of hiss is present irrespective of controls or anything being plugged in, notably more so than on previous amps I've owned e.g. Blues Deluxe, Blues Junior etc
At jamming, rehearsal volumes etc it's not really critical enough to be an issue compared to guitar signal, but at bedroom practice levels / home recording, it is a bit irritating.
My "solution" .. use a volume box in the effects loop which reduces the level from the pre-amp section (where the hiss obviously originates) and cuts out the hiss at low levels. This works really well, but again .. is this characteristic of the amp 'as intended' or is it an avoidable technical issue ?
I've heard various things about the hiss being a result of the amp not incorporating negative feedback, or the high gain structure involved .. would a lower gain tube in V4 maybe achieve a similar effect I wonder ? Can someone explain what the actual source of the noise is, or even if its 'normal' and I've just been 'spoilt' by quieter amp designs up till now ?

I really love the amp, but I just wonder if there is anything I can do about these two things beyond the 'workarounds' I already am using, and if the issues really are a 'feature' of the amp or certain things which may be under revision etc ?

I'd just like to understand this better :)

Dave


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:57 am
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I've been reading about this amp since it was released... I've played one locally, but that was before I knew anything about the noise issues. From what I read, Fender does have a warranty-covered "fix" (or at least a partial fix) for the hiss; not sure about the pop. It seems some people get 22's off the rack that are quiet, some get ones that are unplayable, and about 50% of the people that got the "fix" are happy with the result.

I don't know what's up with Fender's quality control; I had a SS 60 combo and loved it, but it was too loud. The 22W is exactly what the doctor ordered. But apparently you have to get lucky in finding a quiet one... it's actually hard to find these amps in the 6-7 music stores around me; no one wants to carry them for 2 reasons:

1) "it took forever to sell the 60W SS"

2) we carry the DRRI instead.

Damn shame.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:29 am
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I'm beginning to wonder if this whole thing is really more a problem of perception and anecdotes from different sets of ears...

Reading around about it .. it seems that non-negative feedback amps have more background hiss anyhow as the nature of the beast, apparently the vibrolux is another culprit, but the omission of the negative feedback gives them that high presence clangy tone, I certainly adore the amp for it's tone.

The higher gain structure in the SS pre-amp can only make base noise worse I would imagine.

Coupled with the fact that there is apparently some small variation with the biasing of the amp, which actually would be a 'real' variation, I do wonder if the rest of it is simply different people's perceptions of what a 'normal' level of background noise is.

My BDx was almost silent, hence I've got accustomed to that, while I used to have an old hand wired Northcourt amp head from the 70's that was much higher noise. An old Peavey Triumph too I recall being hissy.

If you placed ten Super-Sonics in a line and assessed them, would there really be much difference I wonder ?

Just pondering here, trying to find the ghost in the machine, please feel free to set me straight on any misconceptions !


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:00 am
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I tried one out a few years ago...that thing starting hissing at me like a cat in heat....im not sure what wrong with them....but thats a noisy little amp..


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:37 am
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FenderFreak63 wrote:
I tried one out a few years ago...that thing starting hissing at me like a cat in heat....im not sure what wrong with them....but thats a noisy little amp..


+1 Never tried one I could bond with. Besides the noise, I couldn't get it to anything good over 4 on the volume dial.

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:43 am
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totnesdave, I think you're onto something there.

My 60W SS didn't hiss any more than any other amp I've owned.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:09 am
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The SS and Custom Vibrolux are still a couple of the noisiest amps I've ever encountered in the 40+ years I've been playing tube amps. Sometimes I think the designers/developers never even listen to these amps before they're released. Why even have an amp with gain stages if you don't have a negative feedback loop is beyond me. I can deal with some hiss, with tube amps, it's just the nature of the beast, but if you're trying to record it can become a serious problem. At the very least they should come from the factory with high quality tubes and a proper bias. That in itself may help somewhat. It's not just the hiss that I found annoying, it was the pops and other background noise involved. It just seems that whenever Fender takes a great, old design and "modifies/customizes" it is when the problems start. Why not design something from the ground up and work out the bugs before we get them?

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:23 am
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yes, when I adjusted the bias (it was shipped with the bias on the cold side), and replaced the cheap russian tubes, it sounded quite a bit better, in tone and in less noise.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:35 am
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Yeah, I swapped the first two tubes on mine, V1 for a Tung Sol 12AX7, and V2 for a Jan Philips 5751. The former makes the amp more nuanced, while the latter smooths out the drive section to make it a bit more vintagey (also cuts the hiss a bit more), I love the delicious tone like this, haven't tried any more tube swaps though.

I guess for recording I'd cut the white noise with the volume box as described, as for the switching pop, well just have to be damn careful with string muting. Still ... for a premium amp, one would think that these things could have been made better from the outset so as not to have compromised the product.

I wonder if the newly released "Twin" has similar issues... ?


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:55 am
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The JAN Phillips 5751 is a really quiet tube. I use one in V1 in my Egnater Rebel 20 not for noise issues, but to knock the gain back a little. The Rebel has more gain than I want. Great sounding amp.

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:05 am
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I was using a 5751 in V2 also. Great tube.

Check the bias on that amp. Too-cold bias = white noise.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:59 pm
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Does the SS22 have a negative feedback loop? Can anybody confirm?


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:15 pm
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R132 is the feedback resistor. So yes, the SS22 has a feedback loop in the power amp section.

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:17 am
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Hmm just dug out my schematic, indeed there is an 820 ohm resistor coupled back from the Output Transformer to the input of the Phase Inverter, i.e. a negative feedback loop ... so bang goes that part of the theory.

The mystery continues as to what's going on in the Sssssssuper-Sssssonic Pre-amp :D


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 : are the noise issues understood yet ?
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:05 am
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I think part of the issue is that not only is it a hi-gain amp, but UNLIKE the 60W version, it "shares" preamp tubes between the channels... which would mean possibly more noise in both channels? Here's the tube assignment charts for the 2 amps:

60W SS
V1 –12AX7- V1A is the input stage, V1B is the first gain stage of the drive channel (between gain1 and gain2)

V2 -12AX7- Used in the Clean channel. V2A is the usual BF-type post tonestack/volume stage. after that, there is the preshaping filter (part of the Vibrolux/Bassman-switching) followed by V2B as a buffer stage

V3 -12AX7- Used in the Burn channel as second (V3A) and third (V3B) gain stage, followed by the tone stack and master volume

V4 -12AX7- V4A is a buffer stage after the switching relay between clean and burn. V4B is the effects loop send buffer stage

V5 -12AX7-Effects Loop - V5A is the effects loop return buffer stage, V5B is the reverb mixer stage

V6 12AT7 Phase Inverter

V7 6L6GC Power Section
V8 6L6GC Power Section

V9 12AT7 - Reverb send stage

V10 12AX7 - Reverb makeup/buffer


22W SS
v1a (12ax7) Both channels (1st gain stage for BOTH channels)

v1b (12ax7) Volume on Vintage or Gain1 on Burn (2nd gain stage for BOTH channels)

v2a(12ax7) Gain2 Burn (3rd gain stage for Burn channel)

v2b(12ax7) Both Channels (recovery/buffer?)

V3a & V3b (12at7) Reverb Drive

V4a &V4b(12ax7) Reverb Recovery

V5a & V5b (12at7) Phase Inverter

...which means, (besides making the fx loop opamp instead of tube), Fender seems to be using fewer tubes, more efficiently by "sharing" gain stages (V1b for example) instead of just adding more tubes like in the 60.

...just a theory...


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