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Post subject: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:18 pm
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Relatively new here, but have been on FDP (and alot of other gear forms) for YEARS...

(first, a disclaimer: I can't read schematics, which is why I'm asking this!)

OK, the SS22W has three less 12AX7s than the 60W did. 1 of these was for fx send & return... the 22W has solid state fx loop send & return buffers. But that still leaves TWO 12AX7s that are "missing" from the 22W...

ok, more digging gave me this from this forum:

Super-Sonic 22

V1 is for both channels
V2A is for the burn channel, V2B is (recovery/buffer) for both channels
V3 is the reverb driver (12AT7)
V4A is reverb recovery, V4B is another gain stage for both channels (some kind of additional recovery/buffer)
V5 is PI (12AT7)

If this is true, Fender has eliminated several tube stages in this amp, yet kept the tone very similar? Have they replaced some tube stages with solid state stages or something? (besides the fx loop)? Do they have solid state buffer stages in this thing, or what?

Here's the 60W tube assignments for comparison:

V1 –12AX7- V1A is the input stage, V1B is the first gain stage of the drive channel (between gain1 and gain2)

V2 -12AX7- Used in the Clean channel. V2A is the usual BF-type post tonestack/volume stage. after that, there is the preshaping filter (part of the Vibrolux/Bassman-switching) followed by V2B as a buffer stage

V3 -12AX7- Used in the Burn channel as second (V3A) and third (V3B) gain stage, followed by the tone stack and master volume

V4 -12AX7- V4A is a buffer stage after the switching relay between clean and burn. V4B is the effects loop send buffer stage

V5 -12AX7-Effects Loop - V5A is the effects loop return buffer stage, V5B is the reverb mixer stage

V6 12AT7 Phase Inverter

V7/V8 6L6 Power section

V9 12AT7 - Reverb send stage

V10 12AX7 - Reverb makeup/buffer


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:37 pm
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Well for one thing, I'd direct your attention to V6 and V9 of the 60-watt SS. These tubes are dual triodes, but with only one half of each used. They're both 12AT7's -- thus, their functions can be combined into a single bottle which eliminates one tube from the 22-watt platform's chassis. The phase inverter circuit in the 22 is similar to that of the Princeton Reverb, with the outputs from one half of the tube taken from the plate and cathode to drive the 6V6's in a standard triode configuration.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:57 pm
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but wait- the 22 still has TWO 12AT7s... I'm assuming 1 for reverb driver & 1 for PI. We're talking 12AX7s that were "gotten rid of" here, no?


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:19 pm
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No solid state gain stages in the SS 22. Except for the two halves of an op-amp for the effects loop, the rest of the op-amps and solid state devices are for channel switching, loop switching, normal/fat switching, muting, and a few transistors used as switches bypassing resistors in the reverb circuit. Nothing solid state in the signal path except the effects loop op-amp. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:47 pm
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ruger9 wrote:
but wait- the 22 still has TWO 12AT7s... I'm assuming 1 for reverb driver & 1 for PI. We're talking 12AX7s that were "gotten rid of" here, no?


I'd need to see and compare the two schems to offer a truly qualified analysis. Doubtless though, it's likely that the amp's designers found another corner or two to cut somewhere.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:21 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
ruger9 wrote:
but wait- the 22 still has TWO 12AT7s... I'm assuming 1 for reverb driver & 1 for PI. We're talking 12AX7s that were "gotten rid of" here, no?


I'd need to see and compare the two schems to offer a truly qualified analysis. Doubtless though, it's likely that the amp's designers found another corner or two to cut somewhere.

Arjay


That's exactly what I'm wondering...

I just want to know what jobs those extra 2 12AX7s are doing in the 60W version, because then I'll know what jobs are being done by opamps in the 22W version.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:33 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
No solid state gain stages in the SS 22. Except for the two halves of an op-amp for the effects loop, the rest of the op-amps and solid state devices are for channel switching, loop switching, normal/fat switching, muting, and a few transistors used as switches bypassing resistors in the reverb circuit. Nothing solid state in the signal path except the effects loop op-amp. :idea:


But then, what in the world are the 2 extra 12AX7s DOING in the 60W version? Are they handling the switching/muting/etc???


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:02 pm
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Tubes aren't used for switching. The extra tubes in the 60 watt version are simply extra gain/recovery stages that the 22 doesn't have. The 60 watt has the extra gain stages as it outputs more power. The 22 works the same way but with less gain stages, probably resulting in a little different voicing for each amp. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:18 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Tubes aren't used for switching. The extra tubes in the 60 watt version are simply extra gain/recovery stages that the 22 doesn't have. The 60 watt has the extra gain stages as it outputs more power. The 22 works the same way but with less gain stages, probably resulting in a little different voicing for each amp. :idea:


ok, so the 22 has fewer gain/recovery stages... NOT tube gain/recovery stages that have been replaced by opamps. That's good news. I don't really get why a higher-powered amp would need more gain/recovery stages before hitting the PI. But, regardless, it seems the old 60 amp has more stages, yet the new 22 has similar tone, same amount of overall gain. And apparently a hiss problem, but that's another story.

Just trying to wrap my head around tube stages that Fender apparently thought were NEEDED before, but apparently think AREN'T needed anymore?


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:31 am
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One amp is not an updated version of the other, they are two different amps that sound similar. Generally speaking, the higher power amps will have more gain stages in the preamp than the lower powered amps. The extra stages are necessary as part of the process of obtaining more output power from the amp. You can't take an amp and simply add more power to the output section without beefing up the preamp section and other parts also. These two amps have different power transformers, different output transformers, as well as a different amount of preamp tubes, among other differences. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:50 am
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Then why does something like the High-Powered Tweed Twin (5F8A), putting out 80 watts, need only 2-12AX7s and 1-12AY7?

Not busting your chops, I'm just learning this stuff, and am trying to understand.

Believe me- I know that all this is sort of irrelevant to one's opinion of how an amp SOUNDS... meaning, I shouldn't let the number of tubes make a decision my EARS should be making. Just trying to understand the differences in the 2 amps.

Frankly, as long as the SS22 has tube reverb & all-tube gain/buffer/recovery stages, that's all that really matters to me. The TONE of the amp will of course make the final decision.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:30 am
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Because apples are not oranges. The Twin has no reverb, it doesn't have two separate channels, it uses 4 output tubes, it has two speakers, no effects loop, it is a completely different amp. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:02 am
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Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it.


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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:19 pm
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The twin doesn't have two voicings (bassman, vibrolux).

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Post subject: Re: Super-Sonic 22 has solid-state gain stages???
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:11 pm
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Someone on another forum read both schems, and came up with this for the 22:

v1a (12ax7) Both channels (1st gain stage for BOTH channels)
v1b (12ax7) Volume on Vintage or Gain1 on Burn

v2a(12ax7) Gain2 Burn
v2b(12ax7) Both Channels (recovery/buffer?)

V3a & V3b (12at7) Reverb Drive

V4a &V4b(12ax7) Reverb Recovery

V5a & V5b (12at7) Phase Inverter

...which means, (besides making the fx loop opamp instead of tube), Fender seems to be using fewer tubes, more efficiently by "sharing" gain stages (V1b for example) instead of just adding more tubes like in the 60.


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