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Post subject: Re: SUPERSONIC 22 — BIASING HOW TO
Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:28 pm
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And straighten us out when we make mis-steps! :lol:

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Post subject: Re: SUPERSONIC 22 — BIASING HOW TO
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:28 pm
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Thanks all for the help - and Shimm, I'll only be poking around with my friend present. He's an electronics engineer - and has biased my other amp a few months ago.

I just wanted to know where the test points were. He can definitely find it, he has the schematic, and can actually read and understand them. But, I'd like to see it done for reference.

The stock GT 6V6's in the 22 say on them:
"GT-6V6-S". I peeled away the stickers, and saw nothing underneath them - I have no idea who makes these tubes. Are they Shugang? Russian?

JUST FOUND THIS OUT... http://thetubestore.com/groovetubes.html
The Tube Store a Canadian vendor in Ontario, matches the GT part number with the actual manufacturer. — They say that a GT-6V6S is actually a JJ 6V6S. Interesting. The tube store also offers a "shop by amp" feature: http://thetubestore.com/fender-amps.html. In the list of Fender amps, I found the tube packages they offer for the Supersonic 22:
http://thetubestore.com/fender-super-sonic-22.html

I also noticed that on the sticker around the tubes plastic collar, it says " 7 white", whatever that means.

Last, I ended up putting in the original stock GT 12AX7 - last week I noticed a rattle from this tube, and replaced it with an EH - which I found to be a bit dull compared to the GT 12AX7. For whatever reason, when I put the GT back in - it sounds better, more alive, more detailed. When I had the EH in there, I found that I lost a bit of detail in the upper mids and trebles. Now with the GT back in, it sounds more... well lively. I'd love to know what make these tubes are.


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Post subject: Re: SUPERSONIC 22 — BIASING HOW TO
Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:50 pm
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The GT 6V6-S is not a relabeled tube so there won't be another label. And although the GT "S" are made in the JJ factory specifically for GT, I don't believe that they are the same as JJ branded tubes, and examining them you can see the differences.

The number on the label indicates a clean or early breakup tube, numbered 1 to 10 with 1 being earliest breakup and 10 being the cleanest, and there should also be a color written on the label. Blue 1 to 3 is for early breakup, White 4 to 7 mid range, and Red 8 to 10 for clean headroom. Yours is a white 7, right at the edge of the midrange, almost in the clean range.

Thetubestore is a great place to buy tubes, great customer service, I buy there often. They are suggesting a JJ tube as a comparable replacement for the GT, but they wrongly included the "S" as a relabeled tube, it is not. And as far as I can tell, the GTs and the JJ are similar but not identical, they are not the same tubes. :idea:

As for the GT preamp tubes, they are likely tested/relabeled, just look closely around the glass on the tube to see if there isn't a black printed brand and number, such as: "Sovtek 12AX7WA" or similar label. Usually no need to remove the GT labels, they don't cover up the original label. With GT you are paying for some serious testing, probably the best in the business. GT doesn't just grab tubes and stick their own labels on as some like to imply.

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Post subject: Re: SUPERSONIC 22 — BIASING HOW TO
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:27 am
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Wow, I had no idea. I was told that they're simply relabeled tubes. Hmmm.

So, does that mean that if I wanted more clean overhead, I could order a 10 white? I like the way the amp breaks up on the burn channel, but I find it can get kind of ratty with GAIN 1 and GAIN 2.

There's a mid range richness my ear is craving - that isn't there. It's very bright, well articulated, but a bit thin sounding. I think I want to hear a bit more mid range bite - if this is at all possible with the amp.

Shimm, do you think upgrading the OT and choke with a Mercury Magnetics would improve anything tonally? I'm not 100% convinced. Some people swear by the upgrade, and some others - usually engineers think it's a bunch of BS. — What are your thoughts on the topic?


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Post subject: Re: SUPERSONIC 22 — BIASING HOW TO
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:21 am
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Well, you just proved that they are not relabeled when you peeled off the GT label and voila, no other label. These "S" GTs are fairly new, and most people love to assume that they are JJs without ever even examining both (these same people say that they changed the GTs for JJs and improved the sound of the amp.....can't be both). Many don't understand, or refuse to believe, that the GTs are heavily tested, and you are paying a premium for this testing, and of course people love to talk out their arse and put down something that they have no clue about. The "S" GTs are made in the JJ factory, specifically for GT, on separate equipment than the JJ production tubes. The general rule is true, you usually get what you pay for, JJs are very inexpensive tubes, GTs are not. Hundreds of big name pros use GTs, and they don't use them because of some perceived "hype", they use them because they work well, and they used them long before Fender bought GT. Many people don't really do good A/B comparison of the tubes, they put in the new tubes and bias them hotter than the stock tubes and convince themselves that they "sound better." :)

If you want to go by anecdotal evidence, it can be proven that JJ tubes ruin HRDlx amps. :o For proof, look no further than this forum at some well known members who immediately put JJs in their HRDlx right after they buy it, and then have a prolific amount of problems with their amp. Of course this is not valid proof, but it is a common mistake in logic that many people make. :idea:

The colors correspond with the numbers on the label, so 10 would be red, as described in my previous post. But yes, a red 8 to 10 will give you more clean headroom. I would stick with the GT 6V6-S, but go with a red 8-10 rating for a tighter/cleaner sound, that may be the extra that you need. Of course, set the bias properly for any new output tubes that are different than the ones being replaced.

As for the output transformer upgrade (OT), it would probably be an improvement in tone, and likely an improvement in quality/longevity, but that MM is quite an expensive "upgrade". As with many upgrade/improvements, I doubt if it would be a jaw dropping change, but likely noticeable as the OT is a large part of the tone shaping in an amp. If you have the $$, why not? No doubt that some OTs are better than others, and from my understanding, the MM is one of the best. :)

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Post subject: Re: SUPERSONIC 22 — BIASING HOW TO
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:43 pm
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Thanks Shimm - that's fantastic. I think I'll just run these until they die then. I had no idea - and thanks for educating me.

They sure don't look like cheap tubes - and I love about 90% of the tone from this amp. My only comment, is that there's some shrill I hear from the treble frequencies - on either the vintage or burn channel. The treble control really has to be used here - anything past 5 is ear splitting on my Gretsch.

I'm just looking to roll off some of those highs, and get more GRRR and articulation in the mid-range. However, I have to be practical, it's a 6V6 based amp, not an EL34. But, there are many times when I'm playing the burn channel with GAIN 1 at about 3, same for GAIN 2, and the volume up around 7-8 - it's almost a Marshall tone at times, and really surprises me. I love this amp, best money I ever spent.

If I did end up with the 8-10 RED tubes, how would I know what range to bias them at - compared to the current 7 WHITE tubes?

With the 7 Whites in there, I find that on the vintage channel, I start to get break up around 4.5-5. Anything above that is kind of ratty sounding. Yet, on the BURN channel, with the volume up at 9 or 10 even... using GAIN 1 and 2 sparingly... that is GAIN 1 at 1.5-2, same or a bit more for GAIN 2, I get a lot of clear definition - but the same settings wouldn't apply on the vintage channel.


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Post subject: Re: SUPERSONIC 22 — BIASING HOW TO
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:02 pm
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You'll eventually find the settings that you like, a lot of settings to play with. You can experiment with different preamp tubes without having to worry about bias, there are speaker options, on and on with the possibilities.

gjet wrote:
...If I did end up with the 8-10 RED tubes, how would I know what range to bias them at - compared to the current 7 WHITE tubes?...


Back to your original question, we've come full circle. Same as any output tube, 50% to 70% of the max Plate wattage dissipation rating of the tube, depending on your desired operation of the tube. I typically like to set most any output tube at 55% to 60%, and then get any grit from the preamp tubes and/or pedals on the input or loop of the amp. Check out the link that I posted earlier in this thread to the other thread about biasing the SS 22, there are pictures and just about all the info you could ask for. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: SUPERSONIC 22 — BIASING HOW TO
Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:44 am
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Thanks Shimm - much appreciated. It might be fun to try these out:

A guy posted an article regarding Brimar 6V6's sounding more like an EL34 than a 6V6. Here:
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/22393-sounds-most-like-el34s.html

demonufo a senior member at the Marshall forum said:
"Brimar in particular, sound much closer to the EL34 sound than ANY other I've tried That includes Sylvania, GE, RCA, Mazda, and JJ (although internally the JJ isn't exactly a true 6V6, but it is a really useful tube due to the higher voltages it handles) In fact the Brimar sounds a lot less 6V6 like altogether."

I'd love to hear those. Maybe though I should try pre-amp tubes first. I like the GAIN 1 & 2 function, but for the tone and bite I'm looking for - it gets ratty beyond 4 on each control. I find after 4 on either GAIN, you start to lose the firmness and it can sound fizzy to my ears.

I think first things first - get a different single speaker. I'm pretty set on the Scumback M75. But I do find this amp bright, which is good in a way, it definitely has bite - it's just too fizzy on the top end for my ears. I'd like more brightness in the mids - and more of those blingy sounding highs slightly rolled off.


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