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Post subject: Supersonic and 65 Amps Empire compared.
Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 7:48 am
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Hello guys. I've been pondering something for a few weeks now. I wonder, if Fender had any influence from the guys at 65 Amps releasing the Empire - which also runs 6V6's in a 22 watt power design.

Although they don't sound like each other, the Supersonic has some of the percussive nature of the Empire.

I don't know a lot about the technical side of things, but I do know that the Empire is cathode biased, and uses solid state rectification.

I wonder what voices the Fender more like a Fender, VS the British flavored Empire. Both amps have their strong points. But I'm interested in how the voicing of these amps works - where in the tone stack for example does the Fender get its "Fender" sound?

Any takers?


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic and 65 Amps Empire compared.
Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:07 pm
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It all goes back to Jim Marshall starting with the Bassman and tweaking the circuits to get the Marshall sound. Power amp: Marshall uses .022 caps, Fender used .1. Preamp: Marshall gets the midrange honk by the 2.7 ohm cathode resistor with a .68 bypass cap. Fender used the 1.5 ohm (hotter and cleaner) and 25uf cap. Different values in the tone stack like a 33k $@!&# resistor, etc.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic and 65 Amps Empire compared.
Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:59 pm
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R Jake, thanks for the response. Hmm, that makes me wonder what can be done with a Supersonic type of circuit.

There's a guy on the Metro amps forum, who's done some mods to his Supersonic 22, to voice it more like a Plexi. But he's not very forthcoming with details and such.

I ask, because a friend of mine is an electrical engineer who's been bitten by the amp bug. He can build, modify, many types of circuits. I've been trying gently to persuade him into the idea of hand building 2 - 22 watt amp heads, with a point to point turret board method. He's somewhat interested in the idea because on these 6V6 amps, you can get decent clipping at a very reasonable volume, so that appeals to both of us.

He's been over the schematics for different Marshalls, Vox, and Fender amps. He's aware of the almost identical circuitry between the earlier Fender and Marshall amps. But, where would we find out more on what values to change in a 22 design - that's voiced for as a Fender — to sound more... Marshall-esque?

We don't want to start from scratch, so it would be ideal to get an idea of what values, and where they might go in the Supersonic - for Marshall voicing. For instance, would you have a schematic, or a list of values that could be changed to Marshall specs in the 22's circuit?

Thanks rjake.


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic and 65 Amps Empire compared.
Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:51 pm
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The only thing when modding a Super-Sonic 22 to sound like a Marshall, and it is major, is that you will lose the Fender clean tone. It's better to just buy a Marshall and a/b them like Eric Johnson does. The Egnater Tweaker that I purchased recently is the first amp I've had that gets close to both Fender and Marshall sounds. It does it via mini toggle switches. It's not broken in yet, and I'm still discovering new sounds with it. There might be some guys on here that have owned an amp that did do the Fender and Marshall thing in one amp, and I'm sure they'll chime in.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic and 65 Amps Empire compared.
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:58 am
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The Egnater Rebel 20 does some Fender stuff pretty well. It does a Princeton tweed really well and gets into some pretty interesting and amazing sonic territory. It has pretty nice dynamics too. Egnater does a beautiful job of designing amps with switches and features that actually do something as long as you use them correctly. Don't expect to hear huge changes at really low volumes. They're too subtle. The tube mix is great, the watts dial acts more like a headroom dial. One watt is still really loud, but doesn't have the same headroom. as say 5,10 or 20 watts. It's like using say like a Champ where all the cool stuff happens after 5 or 6 on the volume dial.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic and 65 Amps Empire compared. - 63Supro
Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:17 pm
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Supro, thanks for the reply. I'm not really interested in reinventing the wheel with this amp. But, I've read on other sites that some people have changed the pre-amp tubes to get more headroom, upgraded the OT and choke on this amp etc.

In my case, I'm not really after "CLEAN". I like the cleans the vintage channel produces, but I'm really sold on the burn channel. I just want to know if there's a way to get more firmness in the bottom end, and more headroom. Past 7, the volume can make the amp sound a bit wooly and loose. I personally loved this amp through my Gretsch's bridge pickup:
Burn Channel
Volume at 5-6
Treble, Middle, Bass - all at 12:00
GAIN 1 at 1-1.5
GAIN 2 at 1-1.5

I found this setting had the most clarity and spank - with some grit when you dig into the strings. But I'd love to find a way to get more firmness out of the amp. Maybe a different speaker? Like a Scumback M75?

I think the Egnater is out of my price range.


The Egnater Rebel 20 does some Fender stuff pretty well. It does a Princeton tweed really well and gets into some pretty interesting and amazing sonic territory. It has pretty nice dynamics too. Egnater does a beautiful job of designing amps with switches and features that actually do something as long as you use them correctly. Don't expect to hear huge changes at really low volumes. They're too subtle. The tube mix is great, the watts dial acts more like a headroom dial. One watt is still really loud, but doesn't have the same headroom. as say 5,10 or 20 watts. It's like using say like a Champ where all the cool stuff happens after 5 or 6 on the volume dial.


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Post subject: Re: Supersonic and 65 Amps Empire compared.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:05 am
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A good speaker would probably make more of a noticeable difference than anything else. When I tried the SS 22 I couldn't get it to sound good after about 4 or 5 on the volume dial. It's just not for me I guess. I also found it a bit hissy. The Scumback speakers are really nice. Just watch the power rating you can get them from 25-100 watts. I wouldn't put a 25 watt speaker in a 22 watt amp. I have a friend who swears by Scumbacks and he sounds great. You can get them already broken in too.

I not huge on modding amps. If I can't get really, really close to what I want out of the box, I move on. You can mod amps forever, void your warranty and still not get what you want. Tubes will help too. I was never a fan of GT's.

Arjay is the speaker guru. He's forgotten more about speakers and amps in general than I ever knew. :lol: Maybe he'll chime in.

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Post subject: Re: Supersonic and 65 Amps Empire compared - Supro...
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:06 am
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It's interesting.. I found this: http://amps.msorensen.net/watts.html

There's a quote from the article that mentions: "a 50 watt amp next to a 25 watt amp would, IN THEORY, be almost the exact same volume, assuming that the speaker efficiency was identical."

I wonder then, why the guys at 65 amps in interviews have said, "the way to get distortion at lower volumes... use an 18 or 22 watt amp."

But it seems negligible from 22 to 50 watts. The only reason I was really interested in the SS 22, was because I could get some really good articulation from the burn channel with the settings I mentioned in the last posting. I probably would never need to play past 4-5 anyway. I'm a basement hack. This amp seems to fit the bill. Mind you, for more of a classic rock tone, I might even consider Traynor's YCV50B - a 50 watt combo, with dual EL34's and 12AX7's. I played that amp too, and it didn't seem louder than the 22, and was more in the tonal range I was after.

I think I'm going to have a good friend borrow the SS22 from a local dealer here (he knows them really well), I'll pick up the Traynor 50 watt, and we'll put both through their paces in my basement through his 2 X 12 with vintage 30's. That should help me make up my mind.

Still, there's something really touch sensitive and percussive about that SS22. In those lower ranges, I think it sounds really good.


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