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Post subject: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:11 pm
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been wondering to myself where tubes stand in today's electronical world, thought i'd strike up a discussion for all of your reflections.

on the surface, everyone knows that tubes are antiquated technology, and thats an understatement. for anyone who isnt a guitarist or audiophile, going back to the days of tubes is probably beyond fathomable. solid state technology definitely makes perfect sense where applicable, and is no doubt responsible for the world being able to progress to where we are now. if not for us here, who make up a small fraction of the world population, tubes would likely go the way of the dodo bird. with such a small demand, its obvious that tube manufacturing practices are not what they were decades back, and its amazing that any are being produced. but again, we here do pose a demand for tubes, however small it is.

i cant help but to think that maybe generations to come (guitar players and audiophiles) will eventually drop the torch once and for all, and the digital age will completely dominate the struggle between tube amps and modeling amps. there are certainly some astounding achievements being made lately by that camp. eventually, dare i say it, modeling might just totally defeat any reason and logic for using tube amps. of course it will be a long hard battle :wink: But alas, tubes are not flawless. we use them because they "sound better", but it all comes with a cost. digital amps also have their shortcomings, but those issues are being resolved slowly and steadily, mainly because its more practical than perfecting the tube design.
all im saying is, the potential is growing, and i try to keep an open mind to whats going on.

nonetheless, even though they may be endangered, tube amps still reign king at the current time. tube users easily outnumber all the rest of amp users. it seems more and more boutique amp makers are popping up. i like to compare it to the new wave of microbreweries we are experiencing. its very similar in effect. I just found out that JJ BEGAN tube production in the 90s, and it looks like they're plowing on strong. Groove Tubes, though a bit controversial to many, also proves as a sign that tubes are seeing a revival. The guys over there in R&D appear to be busy. Shuguang also appears to be taking great interest in us as an investment. And then there's New Sensor of course. Also to be noted is the Tube Sync DIVO, which completely revolutionizes tube amps. Its still in infancy, but the fact that someone saw it fit to put time and capital into developing this, really speaks loudly. So there is a beacon of hope that we may see a new dawn of tube technology. The above companies are cashing in on dusting off the old machines and giving it another go. From a business standpoint, that really says something. No company would do business in an area where they didn't see potential profitable gain, so perhaps something lies on the horizon. True its a long shot to produce tubes of equivalent quality to what once existed, but who knows where this will end up?

Amazing how us musicians are substantial enough to create enough demand for these new ventures. Years ago, the world needed tubes for radio, TV, misc military equipment. No longer however. There is only the lowly guitar slinger, in his lifelong quest to find the tone of God. Society needed those items, but not guitar players (or so they think... :roll: ) Interesting...

I may have answered my own question, but I still cant help to ask...how long can we expect to see tubes in abundance? How long will be they be available? Will they ever run dry for good, becoming a rare obsolete relic?
Of course, no one can really answer that, but i invite your opinions. I would guess at least, we have a long time yet before we have to worry about shortages. NOS tubes are even still hanging around, and seeing that there are active factories, we probably dont have to worry about running out of the collective supply in inventory for a long time.

its funny, ive been stocking up in fear that one day i wont be so fortunate, but now i believe i may have been mistaken. one day, long from now, i may still be able to surf over to the "nearest" vendor, and purchase a much needed tube for my amp.


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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:58 pm
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Great Post!!!! and a Great question.... I'll watch this one... I HEAR JOHNEY COMING!!!! :D

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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:00 pm
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Thank god for that little glass bottle...amazing that some things are better letf alone.


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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:13 pm
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bill948 wrote:
Great Post!!!! and a Great question


Indeed it is -- very provocative and it forces all of us "toobers" to be introspective about the future. No technology is immortal, and I think we all know that (though we may be loath to admit it). Just as the rifled musket, the multi-jetted carburetor, and medical fluoroscopes expired and passed into oblivion, one day that final vacuum tube will die and the devices that required them will as well. It's not likely to occur in my lifetime (the Good Lord willing) but that day will surely come.

Food for thought (and not at all "tasty" by any regard).

:(

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:39 pm
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I honestly don't see any reason why tubes couldn't be made better now than they used to be. It's a question of demand & initiative. As far as DSP or something else replacing the tube, there's going to have to be improvements first. IMO even the best stuff isn't quite up there in tone quality yet. Either tubes need to be made more reliable, or modeling technology needs to become more realistic. If both happens, we may be left w/a choice for the foreseeable future. Perhaps maybe hybrid technology should be included in this debate as well :)
BTW, good thread.


Last edited by mojjett on Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:25 pm
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I agree, as long as there is enough demand for tubes, there will be new tube-production.
Vinyl is another technology like that. No one thought it would survive the the turn of the century. I think the demand is actually a lot higher than it used to be...same with llight bublbs, I think.

Guitarists are usually conservative folks and as long as there is no real comparison to a driven tube-amp (which eventually might happen at some point), the technology will stay.

YMMV


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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:09 am
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First thought don't worry so much.

second, hey ya never know with the state of our world today the tube may just be the cockroach of the electronics world, tube circuits might be the lone survivor.

The implications of that one should make you shudder and get goose bumps !

Third there are a lot of tubes still out there, I find them at auctions garage sales etc....
I could keep my 5E3 running the rest of my life on my own stash.

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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:20 am
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Look at it this way.I think I'll be around for awhile.And I will always try to keep tube amps alive.I will pass that on to my Super Kid.And so on. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:00 am
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thereverend wrote:
Guitarists are usually conservative folks and as long as there is no real comparison to a driven tube-amp (which eventually might happen at some point), the technology will stay.


True... There is nothing that could compare to my ancient, boat-anchor-heavy, Ampeg VT-22 pure tube amp, from back in the 70's. I loved that amp...but sadly, something popped inside of it, something crackled, and it actually caught fire back in the mid 80's! :shock:

Tube technology will still be around and pure tube amps will never die. The only amp that I have ever heard that literally made my jaw drop, was a buddy's Peavey Bandit (w/ an extension speaker - it looked like a mini stack) that had that "Transtube" technology. I don't know what Peavey did, but they did a heck of a job mimicing the tone of a true tube amp.


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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:19 pm
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somewhere on a large flat screen, there will be a video of a tube amp in operation, mimicking the guitarist that's plugged into a laptop which in turn will be plugged into a stadium filling Electrovoice setup (with as many solid-state watts as their hearts' desire or can afford) and simultaneously streaming on the net for a real-time rock'n'rollah session. well, that's one provactive version - i couldn't disappoint the some by not writing like this.

but seriously, just like classical music, it ain't quite the same then as now. and so it will be with tubes and tube technology. things change. dollars are dollars. everyone tries to maximize the what's bought for a buck. will tubes ever die off? only if the economics let it.

so there are boss pedals and the amazing JC-120, polyphonic guitar tuners, and not a tube in sight in that group. then there's the fender line-up of tube amps and the aura around them. and there are the new mustangs.

the other thing about music is that each generation wants their own tunes, and they don't want it to sound like their parents music either. it's in the genes or is that jeans, in most developing minds, the two are easily confused. and so there you have it - what's important to old school technology aficionados may not be as the new generation starts to make it own mark, and so things evolve.

Darwin noted that a species survives not because it is the "strongest" or biggest or meanest, it survives because it is the most adaptable. i would suggest same for anyone or anything.

ciao,
john.


Last edited by johnny stecchino on Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:31 pm
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johnny stecchino wrote:
Darwin noted that a species survives not because it is the "strongest" or biggest or meanest, it survives because it is the most adaptable. i would suggest same for anyone or anything.


Hear, hear (raising a glass of Glenlivet's in whole-hearted agreement)!

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:44 pm
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if i'm ever in the neighborhood, we have got to get snorkered.

ciao,
john.


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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:38 am
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Some 30 years ago I figured tubes would have been gone by now or the near future....just like I thought I would never see Y2K when I was a kid back in the 50s/60s.
I thought everything was headed to solid state,it's still a little bit of a surprise to me that tubes still are as popular as they are.
And I'm glad they are for me and other tubular junkies. :D
But they won't last forever,nothing does.


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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:48 pm
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johnny stecchino wrote:
somewhere on a large flat screen, there will be a video of a tube amp in operation, mimicking the guitarist that's plugged into a laptop which in turn will be plugged into a stadium filling Electrovoice setup (with as many solid-state watts as their hearts' desire or can afford) and simultaneously streaming on the net for a real-time rock'n'rollah session. well, that's one provactive version - i couldn't disappoint the some by not writing like this.

but seriously, just like classical music, it ain't quite the same then as now. and so it will be with tubes and tube technology. things change. dollars are dollars. everyone tries to maximize the what's bought for a buck. will tubes ever die off? only if the economics let it.

so there are boss pedals and the amazing JC-120, polyphonic guitar tuners, and not a tube in sight in that group. then there's the fender line-up of tube amps and the aura around them. and there are the new mustangs.

the other thing about music is that each generation wants their own tunes, and they don't want it to sound like their parents music either. it's in the genes or is that jeans, in most developing minds, the two are easily confused. and so there you have it - what's important to old school technology aficionados may not be as the new generation starts to make it own mark, and so things evolve.

Darwin noted that a species survives not because it is the "strongest" or biggest or meanest, it survives because it is the most adaptable. i would suggest same for anyone or anything.

ciao,
john.


I love my mom and dads music.Beatles and disco from my mom.More beatles,Rush,alice cooper,and Jimmy buffett, from my dad.And others I dont even know the names.I discovered Elvis and others from the 50s all by myself.I HATE rap,and most of todays pop music.That is all the people my age listen to, and it drives me nuts that most have never heard the blues before but still claim that they hate it. What kind of name is Lady Ga Ga?At school dances I have to plug my ears for an hour!

P.S.Nothing against you if you like Lady Ga Ga and friends. :wink: Just not my thing.

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Post subject: Re: The future of vacuum tubes...what lies ahead?
Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:01 pm
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i think we may have prodigy among us. surprised you didn't get a little creative with the spelling, it's rich for some real fun.

the so called modern stuff to my liking would be some the 80's stuff, not everyone's cup of tea. for example take the song: flippin on the a side by cats can fly. tight timing, great vocals, good harmony, just that the hook is about 10 seconds late (typical of most 80's tunes).

very right about the disco, some really fabulous tunes, chic for one, nile rogers and bernard edwards (RIP). and of course stomp by the brothers johnson, delegation's heartache number 9.

don't flame me but, kylie minogue's band. very talented guys playing. she puts on a good show.

well, lots of good modern stuff out there. i have to agree, some of it like L Gag, and some C-Rap muzak may not even be fit for elevators. Pharmacies in the infectious disease serum corner?

ciao,
john.


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