It is currently Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:08 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Post subject: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:56 pm
Offline
Amateur
Amateur
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Clackamas County, OR
I've maybe been spending too much time in the amps/cabs section of TGP :shock: - there seems to be much snobbery and near hate for the Fender Vintage Reissues including the PRRI and DRRI due to their PCB construction vs. handwired like the old originals. For my money I love my DRRI - I love it so much I picked up a PRRI as a backup/home practice amp. Many of the complaints I read over at TGP complain about the PCB and its "junk" components. Any truth to this or is this just more boutique snobbery?


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:12 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Well, "junk" is a relative term.

True, the re-issue PCB's are not stocked with Allen-Bradley resistors or Astron and Mallory caps. That said, these amps still sound pretty convincing at least to me. And much of the "sonic vibe" that vintage amp fans profess exists with the originals is actually due to component value drift over the intervening years rather than some mythical difference between carbon-comp and metal-oxide resistors. I own and play two re-issues (TR and DR) and I also own and play ten vintage blackfaces and silverfaces. They're like my children......I love them all.

JMO

:mrgreen:

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:26 pm
Offline
Amateur
Amateur
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Clackamas County, OR
I love the sound of the reissues. Are the PCBs pretty reliable over the years in these amps? Do the traces stand up to years of use typically? I've never owned an older vintage model Fender amp so I have nothing to compare my new amps to. That said - their keepers and I love them both.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:42 pm
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:19 pm
Posts: 8827
Nothing wrong with a well designed PCB amp. The Fender reissues have their tube sockets mounted to the chassis. That alleviates the heat related issues that the HRD series have. The problem comes when you combine thin, single sided boards with tubes mounted to the board as in the HRD series. I've heard that the HRD III series started using slightly thicker baords. Only time will tell.

_________________
Life...... It's sexually transmitted and always fatal


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:02 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Unadan wrote:
I love the sound of the reissues. Are the PCBs pretty reliable over the years in these amps? Do the traces stand up to years of use typically? I've never owned an older vintage model Fender amp so I have nothing to compare my new amps to. That said - their keepers and I love them both.


Both of my re-issues date to the mid-90's (both are marked "Made In Brea, CA" and have the dummy ground switch on the rear panel) and were bought used in early 2001. I've yet to experience a single failure or maintenance issue with either. The moment I got the TRRI home I immediately swapped the speakers out for a pair of JBL K120s. Then I replaced all of the tubes with US-made NOS glass and biased the output tubes to spec. The DRRI has been altered to a degree with the "Fritz mod" and a switchable multi-tap output tranny (4 & 8 ohms). Likewise, all of the tubes save for the original GT rectifier were replaced with quality US glass, with a proper biasing job for the 6V6s. The chassis now resides in a custom-built blonde Tolex cab with a 15-inch JBL D130F providing the "grunt". This amp too has been bulletproof thus far (and I've beat these re-issues like the proverbial rented mule at times).

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:40 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 am
Posts: 4333
Location: Tennessee
I don't own a RI amp except for a '57 Deluxe,that's mostly hand wired but still has components that are not like the originals...that being said,I would value Arjay's comments as both someone who is knowledgeable about both vintage amps and an owner of RI amps,and take a lot of the other comments you've mentioned as snobbery.
I love my vintage amps,but would not hesitate to buy a '65 Deluxe Reissue,and I own an original '65 DR.
I think the RIs are a good value for someone who either can't afford or justify the cost of an original,or would rather not gig with an original.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:32 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 684
Location: Canada
I love this argument. As Arjay and Supro have both stated, there's nothing inherently wrong with a PCB just because it's a PCB. I've got an SRRI and it sounds amazing.

I also love the argument that the componets are not identical to the originals (Mallory caps, etc, etc). Fender has NEVER been a boutique instrument maker (except for the Custom Shop). It probably never occured to most of the purists out there that the reason the originals had all these high quality components is because that's just what was available back then. They were hand wired because there was no other way to build them at the time. Leo built things with a budget in mind - things like speakers for example. I've read that the reason you find so many different speakers in older Fender amps is because Leo bought whatever was cheaper at the time. So really, if Leo was running the company today, do you not think he'd embrace PCB's and the like if it meant lower production costs and a better value for the customer? Not to mention he always had in mind every level of player from student to professional.

What counts in an amp is the design of the circuit. Every Silverface Fender amp out there is hand wired, but you don't see anyone clamouring to get one. They have their fans, but most people hate them. So really, does "hand wired" really mean anything? Most people conjure up the image of some craftsman hunched over a chassis in a folksy looking workroom. Guess what? Now you can buy an amp that was hand wired on a production line in China. It's marketing - pure and simple.

_________________
The ultimate Rolling Stones experience!
https://www.facebook.com/TheMainStreetExiles


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:16 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:19 pm
Posts: 8827
PCB's were around since 1943. Leo could have used them if he wanted to but didn't. Also way back "Made in the U.S.A." stood for quality. We were a leader in quality manufacturing. Now we manufacture virtually nothing here. It could change though. Westinghouse has been talking about "insourcing". Maybe it will become a trend. They made some really high quality electronic parts here because it was the "normal" thing to do.

_________________
Life...... It's sexually transmitted and always fatal


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:17 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
So really, if Leo was running the company today, do you not think he'd embrace PCB's and the like if it meant lower production costs and a better value for the customer? Not to mention he always had in mind every level of player from student to professional.


Excellent points all, PTM.

(and this thread -- thus far -- doesn't really qualify as an "argument" per se......more of a very informative discussion)

That said, there is one issue that begs to be mentioned regarding Leo. His NAME was on every amp that went out the door. And he wasn't wont to cut corners when it came to durability or reliability. Thus, they were all built to the same level of quality, regardless of whether the model was a "student" Champ or a "pro" Dual Showman. Today, more Fender amps are returned to stores for repairs or warranty work every year than left the docks at Fullerton back in the day. That is undisputable......and it is sad.

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:36 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:19 pm
Posts: 8827
My 74 Champ is still alive and well today and has never been in the shop. Champs were just student model amps. I also liked a lot of the Silver Face amps. :wink:

_________________
Life...... It's sexually transmitted and always fatal


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:35 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 684
Location: Canada
..

_________________
The ultimate Rolling Stones experience!
https://www.facebook.com/TheMainStreetExiles


Last edited by Powdered Toast Man on Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:36 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 684
Location: Canada
63supro wrote:
My 74 Champ is still alive and well today and has never been in the shop. Champs were just student model amps. I also liked a lot of the Silver Face amps. :wink:


Hey, I said they have their fans! I didn't denegrate the SF's in any way, I just said a lot of people dislike them - which is true.

My 73 Champ is running great too, but my buddy has a 77 Champ that is not faring so well.

_________________
The ultimate Rolling Stones experience!
https://www.facebook.com/TheMainStreetExiles


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:49 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:38 am
Posts: 4333
Location: Tennessee
Leo also made things that could be repaired and without too much trouble,and actually the necks on the guitars were thought of as replaceable,if they were worn out,just unbolt it and bolt a new one on.
Everybody has said he was a practical man and the amps and guitars were built with the musician in mind...and what they would have to do to keep gigging with the gear they had.
He also was a frugal man they say and used components that were available and cheap enough for production costs.....so the old caps and resistors in vintage amps do sound good but they were probably not high end components at the time.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:07 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:19 pm
Posts: 8827
Now you can't just bolt on a neck unless you know which one of the bozillion versions you have.

_________________
Life...... It's sexually transmitted and always fatal


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: PCBs in Vintage Reissue Amps
Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:31 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:48 am
Posts: 26417
Location: Tombstone Territory
Rebelsoul wrote:
so the old caps and resistors in vintage amps do sound good but they were probably not high end components at the time.


Many of those components manufactured by the very same companies were used in military electronic and comm gear. Thus, they were more than adequate for use in simple guitar amps.

Arjay

_________________
"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: