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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 3:26 am
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So, should I get the Hammond OT with the 4 Ohm option for my PRRI?
Anybody know about the quality of these compared to the stock tranny?


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? — Shimmilou...
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 5:23 am
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Shimmilou, I offered up the AC30 example, because it's a "loud" amp. 2 X 12 inch Alnico blues have exceptional efficiency, yet can handle a perfect 30 watts - 15 per speaker. So why then wouldn't the same apply to the SS22?

In other words, if the SS22 is rated at a full 22 watts per channel, and I use a 25 watt Greenback, I'd expect it to breakup sooner. And, I want that sound more for classic rock stuff.
I don't want a high rated speaker for crystal cleans. At times, I almost find the 50 watt lightening bolt too loud. I think this amp sounds best between 2.5 and 4.5 on either channel anyway. Anything above that, and it loses it's clarity and definition.

I'm just thinking, if I stick with something in the middle, like a Scumback J75 rated for 30 watts, and power handling of 98 db, I should probably be fine — I'll NEVER be playing this amp any louder than 5 on either channel.

Although it would only be a single speaker in the SS22, wouldn't this same logic apply to the Vox example you gave? You said, "I'd say use a minimum of 50 watt speaker" So why wouldn't you apply the same principle to the AC30. 30 watts output, therefore a 60 watts for both speakers combined? Thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 8:02 am
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thereverend wrote:
So, should I get the Hammond OT with the 4 Ohm option for my PRRI?
Anybody know about the quality of these compared to the stock tranny?


If you have the funds available, and want the flexibility, why not? Using a 4 ohm speaker load on the 8 ohm tranny will probably sound different than using it with a 4 ohm tranny and one way may sound better to you than the other. Personally, I liked your idea of spending the money on another speaker instead. Maybe someone else knows if the Hammond is better quality or not, than the stock tranny. :idea:

gjet wrote:
Shimmilou, I offered up the AC30 example, because it's a "loud" amp. 2 X 12 inch Alnico blues have exceptional efficiency, yet can handle a perfect 30 watts - 15 per speaker. So why then wouldn't the same apply to the SS22?

In other words, if the SS22 is rated at a full 22 watts per channel, and I use a 25 watt Greenback, I'd expect it to breakup sooner. And, I want that sound more for classic rock stuff.
I don't want a high rated speaker for crystal cleans. At times, I almost find the 50 watt lightening bolt too loud. I think this amp sounds best between 2.5 and 4.5 on either channel anyway. Anything above that, and it loses it's clarity and definition.

I'm just thinking, if I stick with something in the middle, like a Scumback J75 rated for 30 watts, and power handling of 98 db, I should probably be fine — I'll NEVER be playing this amp any louder than 5 on either channel.

Although it would only be a single speaker in the SS22, wouldn't this same logic apply to the Vox example you gave? You said, "I'd say use a minimum of 50 watt speaker" So why wouldn't you apply the same principle to the AC30. 30 watts output, therefore a 60 watts for both speakers combined? Thanks.


You are correct, the 25 watt speaker would probably breakup earlier, and if that is what you want then go for it. I generally don't like pushing something to the limit unless I am confident that it can handle the peaks of power that the amp will produce, and I don't like my speakers to provide distortion, but that is just my opinion and what works for me, and I do "push my luck" occasionally. And I believe that the original Vox AC30 did use a single 60 watt speaker (twice the amp's output rating). The later lower watt rated speakers, and using two instead of one probably changed the original sound quite a bit. Use a good quality speaker and you should be good. I expect that the speakers that Vox uses are very good quality to be able to be pushed to their rated limit (and beyond considering peaks of power). I think that it's great to try new sounds and experiment with different speakers. Just to be clear, the wattage rating has nothing to do with how loud it will sound, and the db rating has nothing to do with power handling. :)

BTW, never say "never". :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? - Shimmilou...
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 8:33 am
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That's the issue... How early will a 30 watt J75 breakup, compared to the Eminence 50 watt in the Fender?

I don't want a farty low end either, I want much more firmness in the bass response, but I want the mid, upper mid range and treble to be retained. It says that this speaker will do that.

I'm just afraid that if I put in the J75 - 65 watt, that will be TOO loud for my application. This amp sounds best on "moderate" volume, 3-4 on either channel. Maybe 5-6 max on the BURN channel.

So I wouldn't want the 30 watt to break up in a farty way up at 6 on the BURN channel's volume.


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 9:44 am
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Thanks, shimmilou.
Sorry BTW, I did not want to hijack this thread about the Supersonic, it just seems a related question.

So I am more on the side of ordering a different speaker instead of the OT, it's slightly more expensive, but I heard good things about these:
http://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/product_info.php/info/p4865_WGS-Veteran-10-10----20-W---8-Ohm.html

What do you think?


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 12:37 pm
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gjet,

Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. :lol: Maybe you should research the speaker reviews/specs some more, and maybe get an extension cabinet that will allow you to try out different speakers before committing to any particular one. Check out your chosen supplier's return policy, maybe you can try one and send it back in exchange for another if you don't like the sound. I've already said what I would do. :wink:

thereverend,

No problem, sometimes I can multitask, but most of the time I can barely task. :lol: I have no experience with WGS, but I would say the same as I did to gjet, I would use a higher wattage speaker if it were my amp, but some people like to use a lower rated speaker for the breakup. The PRRI comes with a 40 watt speaker. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? - Shimmilou.
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 5:10 pm
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Well, I know I can't have it all. But, I'm just trying to guage how the speaker might behave. I know how it sounds. For all of you guys, this is a fantastic high quality demo of several Scumback speakers. The same guitar, same amp, same settings - and the tonal changes are very evident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3eEMWyk0TE

Peter Thorn goes through several Scumbacks. My personal favorite was the M75. In a bright amp like the SS22, it might be a good option - we'll see.

I'm hoping 30 watts is enough output for me, and that the speaker won't be damaged compared to the 65 watt M75. I'm just afraid of how loud the 65 will be compared to the 30.

I can understand putting 2 X 30's in a 2 X 12, but not 2 X 65's - man that would be overkill for my basement playing.


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 9:01 pm
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Keep in mind gjet that a 65 watt rating on a speaker simply means that it can handle up to 65 watts of amp power, it will not output 65 watts in a SS 22, as the amp only produces 22 watts no matter which speaker is installed. The wattage rating of a speaker will not determine how loud it sounds. The db rating will tell you which will sound louder in the same amp, a 103 db rating will sound louder than one rated at 93 db, regardless of the speaker watt rating. You do have the right idea of the lower wattage speaker breaking up easier than a higher wattage speaker.

I must sound like a broken record, but you keep referring to the fear that a 65 watt speaker will "sound louder" than a 30 watt speaker, and the watt rating is irrelevant. Just want to emphasize the point so that you can make an informed decision. :)

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? — Shimmilou...
Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 5:29 am
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Ahhh, I think the light bulb just went on for me.

You're saying that a 65 watt speaker, is intended more for an amp with higher power. Whereas the 30 watt might be perfect for the SS22.

It makes perfect sense now. I just thought somehow, that a higher wattage speaker like a 65 watt, would lend more volume than a 30 watt. But it has nothing to do with db output, and efficiency.

Hmmm, the
M75 is rated at 25 watts
97 db
35 oz magnet
75hz bass cone response

J75 is rated at 30 watts
98 db
40 ounce ceramic
75hz bass response

There's only a 5 oz difference in magnet weight between these 2 speakers, and 1 db difference. For the differences in magnet weight - what does that impart to the tone of a speaker. It seems like all other things between them are almost equal.

What really separates the difference in tone between these 2 speakers? The magnet weight?


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 6:35 am
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By Jove, I think he's got it! :D Yes, the db rating (efficiency) will give you an idea of loudness for speaker comparison, and 1 db difference is virtually no difference at all. Typically, the human ear can't even detect a 1 db difference in sound. (maybe Eric Johnson can :lol: )

The magnet weight isn't that much different between those two speakers either, but a different magnet material would have more of an affect on sound (ceramic vs alnico for example). If both speaker use the same magnet material, then there's not much difference there either.

The material that the cone is made from will also affect the sound as well as the amount of ribbing it has. For example a fully ribbed cone will have a cleaner/tighter sound compared to one that has no ribbing. No ribbing is conducive to easier speaker breakup.

In this case, just going by the specs, it seems that the differences between those two speakers would be subtle, but I would really have to hear them for an accurate comparison. The extra magnet weight might be where the extra db comes from. Several subtle differences between two speakers may add up to a noticeable difference in sound. A little extra magnet weight, a little extra wattage, an extra db of sound, all may add up. But, that is what you are doing, comparing the specs to narrow your search, then at some point your ear has to become part of the comparison.

Oh cr@p! Now I've thrown cone ribbing and material, as well as magnet material, into the equation. As if you didn't have enough to figure out. :o :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? - Shimmilou...
Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 9:48 am
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Shimmilou, by cone ribbing, — do you mean "doping".

I have read that for "natural" speaker distortion, some players prefer no doping. I am looking for firmness in the sound, but more the low end, and lower midrange.

This 22 is exceptional in the mid, upper mid and treble frequencies. It's the bass that's lacking. But today, I'm going to plug the amp's internal speaker jack into a 2 X 12 running 2 V 30's - to take the Eminence speaker out of the equation to isolate the sound.

I have a good idea of what the Scumback M75 sounds like... like a fantastic Pre-Rola. That's what I'm after I think - early 70's classic rock tones.


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:08 am
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Ribs are raised portions of the speaker cone material that look like speed bumps shaped like rings, similar to the look of a skinny persons ribs pushing up underneath the skin. A speaker with no ribs will have smooth cone material. There are choices of no ribs, medium ribbed or fully ribbed for different responses, ribbed for tight response, no ribs for earlier breakup.

Doping is a chemical treatment (dope) to alter the stiffness of the speaker cone and/or "surround" material. Sometimes doping is used to simulate years of use, making the speaker cone or surround material more flexible. Or, conversely, other "doping" chemicals can be used to stiffen the cone or surround.

I have heard nothing but good reviews about the V30, that and the fact that there are two of them in a cab will probably amaze you with the sound difference compared to the single eminence in the amp. :D

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? - Shimmilou...
Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:03 pm
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You nailed it. I tried the 2 X 12 today without plugging into the Eminence - which now I can't stand. It's flappy, not nearly firm enough in the bass or lower mids.

But, easily replaced. So I plugged into the 2 X 12 only. WOW, completely different sound. But, V30's for all of their glory are not my favorite sound. They definitely have more WOOF, but not as much detail as I'd like in the upper mids. For that reason, I think I might end up getting either the M75 — like the pre-rolas or the J75 Scumback — (which is much more like a Celestion G12H(75).

Either way, the fix can be made to the sound. But I'm sure a pair of them in a closed back 2 X 12 would be fantastic.

Another thing. Since I've had the amp, I noticed a subtle but annoying buzzing or rattle coming from the front grill cloth. I looked in the back of the amp, and noticed a pre-amp tube's metal casing. I tapped on it, and there was the buzzing. I pulled the GT 12AX7-C out, and noticed that one of the pins was severely bent - although it was seated in the tube socket.

I purchased an Electro Harmonix as a replacement today, installed it, then hand turned all of the pre-amp tube covers to tighten them a bit more. Presto, no more rattle, and I'm very happy with that.

So next thing is a new single speaker for the 22. Shimmilou, again, thanks for your help and input. Now to decide, 30 watt Scumback, or 65?


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 1:13 pm
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8) When you get the chance, post your thoughts on your new speaker(s). With all of the thought, research and effort that you've put in you should have a killer setup. Can't wait to hear some feedback. :idea:

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:37 am
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After ordering my Suoer Sonic 22 in spite of all the reported noise issues here and elswhere ( I always assume that on the internet, a small minority of people with problems post complaints and the vast majority of happy buyers do not post anything), I came accross the this extension speaker jack issue. Planning to use an extension cabinet with the SS22, I called Fendor Technical Support and was handed off to Eric, who assured me that, despite the confusing labeling on the amp, it is perfectly safe to add an 8u extension to the extension jack while keeping the on board 8u speaker plugged in. He said that internally, the amp is capable of handling the subsequesnt 4u load.

This made me a happy camper so I eagerly awaited the arrival of my SS22, which was ordered direct from Fendor by my local dealer. I was hoping that because it was coming directly from the factory, it would be a recent build, and any noise issues / fixes would have been addressed. I picked up the amp and took it home, unboxed and just looked at it for a little bit. It is so cool looking (bonde/ox blood). I already have a 10 year+ USA built HRD with a Vintage 30 speaker, but I wanted this amp due to a better "burn" channel, and overall superior tone (reportedly). I did try one out in the store before I ordered mine and was happy. Anyway, I plugged the amp in, left it in standby and switched on the power. All knobs were set at the lowest point, no guitar plugged in. Perfect silence, so far, so good. I then switched off standby, still no guitar, all knobs at 0, and the most awful "electrical" hum blared from the speaker. I mean loud. I turned it off, then on, no change. Plugged in a guitar, no change. I was so bummed. Just for grins, I tried the burn channel. It was really low output, set it on 10 and it was barely at bedroom level. In addition, the reverb was completly non functional. Again, I was / am so bummed, I really wanted to like this amp, and I really was hoping all QC issues had been resolved at this point. I boxed it up, took it back, and have not decided what to do. That was a month ago...


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