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Post subject: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:15 am
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I just purchased a new Super Sonic 22 [fantastic amp by the way] and there seems to be much controversy on the external speaker jack and connecting speakers other than the main speaker. The manual isn't very clear with it's instructions.

Here is what the manual says:

P. Main / External Speakers

A speaker MUST be plugged into the INTERNAL SPEAKER jack when the Super-Sonic amplifier is ON or damage may occur. Switch the amplifier OFF, or to STANDBY while changing speaker connections.

Keep the internal speaker connected to the INTERNAL SPEAKER jack for normal use.

Here is what the back of the amp says:

Parallel Speaker Outputs

8 ohm minimum total 22w


The way I understand it is that you cannot exceed an 8 ohm load which would render the external speaker jack useless if you wanted to connect an additional 8 ohm cabinet as that would drop to a 4 ohm load. So if I understand correctly you can only plug another 8 ohm cabinet to the internal speaker jack [example 2 x 12 cab w/ 2 16 ohm speakers. By doing that there would only be sound coming out of the 2 x 12 cab as the main speaker would be unplugged. So why have the external speaker jack??? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I want to make sure that I am correct before trying to add an additional cabinet. :?


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:28 am
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Your understanding is correct.

What FMIC's logic behind such an arrangement is escapes me.

(prolly them too)

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:05 am
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So please help me to understand this - I'm not really that knowledgeable with speakers etc.

Here's an image posted on imagebin of the rear panel on my SS22: http://imagebin.org/155609

If I want to use my external 2 X 12 ONLY, and not use the internal speaker, should I plug the external speaker cable into the SS's internal speaker jack on the left, and then disconnect the external speaker jack entirely?

This would make the external jack useless ( what's the point of having it then?

Currently, I'm running the external speaker jack to the 2 X 12, and the internal speaker is obviously connected to the internal jack. Please help


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:36 am
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If your 2 x 12 extension cabinet is 8Ω, disconnect the amp's internal speaker completely and plug the cab directly into the main speaker jack. Ignore the extension output jack -- it's only there to confuse.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? — Arjay
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:29 am
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Arjay Wrote:
If your 2 x 12 extension cabinet is 8Ω, disconnect the amp's internal speaker completely and plug the cab directly into the main speaker jack. Ignore the extension output jack -- it's only there to confuse. — Arjay

So Arjay, if I plug my extension cab (which is 8 ohms) into the SS's INTERNAL jack, what is to be made of the external jack?

Why did Fender put it there? Is this to run an additional external 8 Ohm cabinet?

Case in point: I also have a friend's 4 X 12 with Vintage 30's in it. The 4 X 12 is also an 8 ohm cabinet. Could I run this cabinet to either the external or internal jack on the SS as well?

Much thanks.


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? — Arjay
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:59 am
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gjet wrote:
Case in point: I also have a friend's 4 X 12 with Vintage 30's in it. The 4 X 12 is also an 8 ohm cabinet. Could I run this cabinet to either the external or internal jack on the SS as well?


Yes. Disconnect amp's internal speaker and connect the 4 x 12 cab to the primary (internal) speaker jack.

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:09 am
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It is a lot simpler than most people know. The impedance matching is only about amp efficiency, that's all, nothing more. With the impedance of the amp matched to the speaker load, the amp will output the most power possible. If you notice on the schematic the SS 22 has a "shorting jack" for the main speaker jack, meaning that if the speaker cable is unplugged from the amp the output transformer will have a short circuit across the secondary to protect the transformer if the amp is used. You can not run a tube amp without a "load" of low enough impedance to protect the output transformer, and a short satisfies this requirement.

Any tube amp will safely handle an impedance mismatch of 2 to 1 easily, without harm to the amp, all the way down to zero ohms (shorting jack). Connecting a low impedance will not allow any more current to flow than the transformer can handle.

If you look at a load line chart for any tube amp and speaker you will notice that a great deal of the time the impedance of the speaker will be well below its nominal rating, as the impedance is dependent on the frequency. So, if the amp couldn't handle the mismatch, then normal operation would result in damage.

Much of the confusion lies in the inconsistent messages printed on the amps, and misunderstanding transformers in general (Fender...inconsistent....surely not :lol: ). You will not do any damage to the amp if the speaker is unplugged from the jack, as long as the shorting jack does its job. Damage can occur however if there is no shorting jack or load connected to the output.

As part of my routine maintenance for equipment, I have to disconnect output transformers from the load to test them, and it is imperative that a the secondary is shorted to prevent damage while testing. I have never lost a transformer due to shorting the secondary (very low impedance - 0 ohms), but I have seen several transformers smoke due to powering them up with an open secondary (too high an impedance).

The jack was put there to be used, and there is absolutely no harm in using a 4 ohm impedance speaker load with an 8 ohm amp. It is important to match the impedance for best efficiency (most power out of the amp), but the idea has nothing to do with any possible damage from a mismatch. :)

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? — Thanks shimmilou
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:49 am
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shimmilou, much thanks for the explanation. In my case, I'm not really happy with the Eminence Lightening Bolt 50 watt in the SS. I find it a bit farty in the low end.

Someone suggested that I try changing out that speaker, and putting in a 30 watt Scumback, like a J55 series Scumback. It has a "bigger/tighter bass response than the M75, but retains the M75's midrange punch, while offering just a bit more volume and treble bite"

Another friend suggested a single 25 watt Greenback, or even the M55 Scumback, which is the closest of the Scumback series to a Celestion Greenback.

I don't necessarily want louder in the amp's single speaker. If I want more push, I'll use the extension cabinet.

Question 1:
Is there a noticeable difference in volume/output between a 25 watt (30 oz magnet) speaker
VS a 30 watt with a (40 oz magnet) speaker?

Question 2:
Would a 25 watt speaker be able to handle the output of the 22? I never really play it past 4-5 on the clean channel's volume, and rarely past 5-6 on the BURN channel's volume.


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:31 am
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The wattage rating of a speaker tells how much power that it can handle, and really doesn't determine how loud it sounds. You wouldn't want to have even the possibility of over-powering your speaker by very much, it can result in a blown speaker. So, you wouldn't want to use a 25 watt speaker on an amp that may develop 100 watts for example.

The speaker efficiency is what will determine how loud it sounds. Example, a speaker rated at 93 db will not sound as loud as one that is rated at 103 db, all other things being equal.

Retroverbial has probably forgotten more about speakers than I know, he could better advise you on which are the better speakers for your application. :)

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack? — Shimmilou
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:02 pm
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Thanks again. You said in your last post:

"You wouldn't want to have even the possibility of over-powering your speaker by very much, it can result in a blown speaker. So, you wouldn't want to use a 25 watt speaker on an amp that may develop 100 watts for example."

In my case, I don't know what the maximum output is on the SS22. I know from Fender's site, that it says the Power Handling is 22 Watts into 8 Ohms. But where does the 22 watt rating come from? Does that mean on the Vintage Channel with the Volume at 10 - it's a full 22 watts of output?

I know Fender chose this Eminence speaker for it's "moderate volume" characteristics. It's not the most efficient speaker - but it's rated at 50 watts.

If I went with a Scumback M75, I can do 25 watts or (J75, I can do either 30 watts, or 65 watts). But 65 watts with either of these models is probably much louder than the single 50 watt Eminence. There's not data on the Eminence... what magnet weight, what the power handling is etc.

The J75 for example has a 40 oz magnet, and has power handling of 98 db, and comes in 30, 65, or 100 watt models.

So how then, can 2 Alnico Blue speakers be capable of running in a Vox AC30? How do I find out how many TRUE watts the SS22 is, if running at full tilt? - But I'd never run it at that volume anyway.

Is there anyone here who knows what the full wattage/output of the SS22 is?


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:54 pm
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The SS 22 develops roughly 22 watts at 8 ohms at full volume using either channel (specs on the schematic). Whatever speaker that you use should be capable of handling 25 or more watts (I'd say use a minimum of 50 watt speaker). If you use a low wattage speaker, say 25 watts or less, it will distort easier as it will reach it's power handling limit sooner than a higher wattage speaker, some people like this, I wouldn't recommend it. A speaker of 25 watt or more rating will work, but at some point you will pay more than necessary to get a very high rating, and a 25 watt or less speaker may start to distort at high volume, possibly causing the speaker to blow. A blown speaker in your amp can result in serious amp damage.

Remember, the wattage rating of the speaker (power handling rating) has nothing to do with how loud it will sound. The efficiency (db rating) will determine how loud it sounds. So, a 50 watt 103 db speaker will sound louder than a 100 watt 93 db speaker if the same amp is used to power either.

You won't get the specs on the Eminence speaker, unless you have some inside connections, it is a closely guarded secret by Fender and Eminence. I tried myself.

The AC30 has two speakers and would split the amp power between the two, half of the amps power going to each speaker. :)

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:35 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
It is a lot simpler than most people know. The impedance matching is only about amp efficiency, that's all, nothing more. With the impedance of the amp matched to the speaker load, the amp will output the most power possible. If you notice on the schematic the SS 22 has a "shorting jack" for the main speaker jack, meaning that if the speaker cable is unplugged from the amp the output transformer will have a short circuit across the secondary to protect the transformer if the amp is used. You can not run a tube amp without a "load" of low enough impedance to protect the output transformer, and a short satisfies this requirement.

Any tube amp will safely handle an impedance mismatch of 2 to 1 easily, without harm to the amp, all the way down to zero ohms (shorting jack). Connecting a low impedance will not allow any more current to flow than the transformer can handle.

If you look at a load line chart for any tube amp and speaker you will notice that a great deal of the time the impedance of the speaker will be well below its nominal rating, as the impedance is dependent on the frequency. So, if the amp couldn't handle the mismatch, then normal operation would result in damage.

Much of the confusion lies in the inconsistent messages printed on the amps, and misunderstanding transformers in general (Fender...inconsistent....surely not :lol: ). You will not do any damage to the amp if the speaker is unplugged from the jack, as long as the shorting jack does its job. Damage can occur however if there is no shorting jack or load connected to the output.

As part of my routine maintenance for equipment, I have to disconnect output transformers from the load to test them, and it is imperative that a the secondary is shorted to prevent damage while testing. I have never lost a transformer due to shorting the secondary (very low impedance - 0 ohms), but I have seen several transformers smoke due to powering them up with an open secondary (too high an impedance).

The jack was put there to be used, and there is absolutely no harm in using a 4 ohm impedance speaker load with an 8 ohm amp. It is important to match the impedance for best efficiency (most power out of the amp), but the idea has nothing to do with any possible damage from a mismatch. :)


So, Shimmilou, would you say the same goes true for a PRRI?
Because I am waiting for a extension cab with a 12' 8 Ohm speaker and i would love to use it with both my BFDR (I know it will handle the total 4 Ohm load) and the Princeton Reissue.
I was thinking of ordering this http://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/product_info.php/info/p3971_Hammond-1760E-Fender-OT-125A10B---022913-UPGRADE-Princeton.html , but if you say the little guy will also handle the mistmatch (with a little less clean headroom, I guess) I'd rather order a better internal speaker instead. :)

This is what stands in the manual:
EXTERNAL SPEAKER—Plug-in connection for an external speaker. This jack is wired in parallel with the INTERNAL SPEAKER JACK {M} and affects the speaker impedance load. Use 8Ω minimum total. To use the external speaker output, first disconnect the internal speaker. Then connect a 16Ω speaker load (minimum) to the internal speaker jack and another 16Ω speaker load (minimum) the external speaker jack.



Thanks!
The Reverend


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 12:13 am
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Yes I would, the amp will output the most power with an 8 ohm speaker load, but will work fine with a 4 ohm speaker load, only giving less power out, and probably a much different sound, one way may sound better than the other. The transformer that you linked to looks like it has multiple output taps so that you can configure it to match the speaker impedance however you like, which would be advantageous. The directions in the manual simply show how to maintain the efficiency of the amp and get the most power out by maintaining an 8 ohm load. :idea:

Have you heard of people blowing up their amps from having an impedance mismatch of two to one? I haven't. And if the amp has a properly functioning shorting output jack, you won't hear of an amp blowing up from having no speaker plugged in either. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 12:32 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Yes I would, the amp will output the most power with an 8 ohm speaker load, but will work fine with a 4 ohm speaker load, only giving less power out, and probably a much different sound, one way may sound better than the other. The transformer that you linked to looks like it has multiple output taps so that you can configure it to match the speaker impedance however you like, which would be advantageous. The directions in the manual simply show how to maintain the efficiency of the amp and get the most power out by maintaining an 8 ohm load. :idea:

Have you heard of people blowing up their amps from having an impedance mismatch of two to one? I haven't. And if the amp has a properly functioning shorting output jack, you won't hear of an amp blowing up from having no speaker plugged in either. :wink:


Thanks for the fast and clear answer. I just wanted to get assurance from somebody with more experience than me.
I know there is no clear answer to this, but just in your opinion, would you leave the original transformer in the PRRI if you wanted to use an ext. cab once in a while for gigs or go for the OT with the 4, 8 and 16 ohm output ?


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Post subject: Re: Super Sonic 22 External Speaker Jack?
Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 1:52 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Have you heard of people blowing up their amps from having an impedance mismatch of two to one? I haven't.


Seen it quite often, actually. And nearly always at the most inopportune of moments (ie: on stage).

Fenders (especially vintage Fenders) are built a bit more ruggedly than many brands. That said however, I prefer "safe and sane" to whistling past the graveyard. Arguing against the laws of physics is seldom productive and verdict always favors the plaintiff.

Arjay

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