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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:42 am
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Jeffytune wrote:
Serious tone cost serious money?
Let me guess, your in the used gear business. :roll:

Great tone comes from, yes good quality gear, but more importantly, from Talent!
It make no difference how much you spend on gear if you do not have talent to back it up.


I'm in the entertainment business, pal.

I do my my best to see that some local saloon's jukebox remains unemployed for the duration of an evening. People pay me money to play and I passed the 2100 mark for pro gigs last month (look up the word "professional" in your Funk & Wagnall's for further clarification).

The gentleman who posited the original question asked for information and facts so I responded, based on my 44 years of experience with Fender equipment.

Arjay

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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:45 am
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I see that word talent tossed around quite a bit,and some of the people who it's associated with have very little.
Sure you have to have some talent and great gear won't help you if you have none,but crafting great tone is a talent in of itself,and years of studying tone and tweaking amps and guitars is a learning process that seems to never end.
It ain't just about buying speakers and such....most times there's not an easy solution....oh,to some there is,but to people like Arjay and myself and a few others who have been doing it for well over 40 years,it becomes an obsession.


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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:58 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
I see that word talent tossed around quite a bit,and some of the people who it's associated with have very little.
Sure you have to have some talent and great gear won't help you if you have none,but crafting great tone is a talent in of itself,and years of studying tone and tweaking amps and guitars is a learning process that seems to never end.
It ain't just about buying speakers and such....most times there's not an easy solution....oh,to some there is,but to people like Arjay and myself and a few others who have been doing it for well over 40 years,it becomes an obsession.


You can toss me in there too. :wink: And yes, serious tone does cost serious money. A better amp, speaker, guitar etc can even make a hack's tone a little better. I've heard plenty of hacks with good tone. It doesn't make a difference how talented you are, a cheap cheesy amp will not give you great tone. I've also spent a lot of time in the entertainment business. No one ever said anything about talent. Tone is the issue and it can become an obsession. I stopped a long time ago.It doesn't mean I have bad tone, it could just always be better. As long as you're happy with your tone it's all good. Many of us Geezers lived through a time when tone and reliability were the rule not the exception. There were no "boutique" amps. The big players like Fender, Ampeg, Sunn, Valco, Silvertone, Danelectro etc. were great right out of the box.

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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:29 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
I see that word talent tossed around quite a bit,and some of the people who it's associated with have very little.
Sure you have to have some talent and great gear won't help you if you have none,but crafting great tone is a talent in of itself,and years of studying tone and tweaking amps and guitars is a learning process that seems to never end.
It ain't just about buying speakers and such....most times there's not an easy solution....oh,to some there is,but to people like Arjay and myself and a few others who have been doing it for well over 40 years,it becomes an obsession.

Well said RS! I have solicited advice from Arjay and it has been extremely helpful to me in order to achieve the tone I'm looking for. I agree that tone knowledge is a talent and only achieved from years of experience and of course having a good ear...

IMO, great tone alone is not enough, talent alone is not enough either, but the two together can produce some amazing stuff! There are times that even some of my favorite talented guitar players were having a bad tone day and I prefer not listening to those tunes...

To the original poster, what don't you like about the speaker in your VV? I'm new to 15" speakers, I tried both the D130F and the same Eminence in your amp, I ended up with the Emi in my DRRI cause it gave me the tone I was looking for. This doesn't mean I didn't like the JBL, I LOVED the JBL, the sweetest tones I ever heard! But I wanted a cleaner brighter sound. My DRRI is much louder, clearer, cleaner with the Emi, but it lacks that sweet vintage tone I heard in the JBL. I wish I can combine both speakers into the ultimate speaker for me :) but if I wanna hear a warm vintage Fender tone I plug into the Bandmaster and listen to the sweet tones of the JBL.

You can find 8 ohms D130F on ebay for around $150, the Emi costs around $75 on ebay and well worth it.


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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:06 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Jeffytune wrote:
Serious tone cost serious money?
Let me guess, your in the used gear business. :roll:

Great tone comes from, yes good quality gear, but more importantly, from Talent!
It make no difference how much you spend on gear if you do not have talent to back it up.


I'm in the entertainment business, pal.

I do my my best to see that some local saloon's jukebox remains unemployed for the duration of an evening. People pay me money to play and I passed the 2100 mark for pro gigs last month (look up the word "professional" in your Funk & Wagnall's for further clarification).

The gentleman who posited the original question asked for information and facts so I responded, based on my 44 years of experience with Fender equipment.

Arjay


A bit defensive aren't we.

While I have not commented on your level of playing ability (As I do not know you well enough to make such a judgment) and I have only tried to offer a different opinion from yours, while you have belittled and insulted mine.
I am 50 years old and I started playing when i was 7, I used to work for CBS in the wood shop, and I used to built these amps.
Does that make me more an expert then you?
If you knew that my uncle was Harold Rhodes, would you think I am more qualified?
If you knew that I worked with Leo Fender and George Fullerton at G&L, would that change your opinion?

I would think it shouldn't, The above is all true, but that does not make me more qualified then you to tell someone i do not know how or what he should play in his amp to get his tone.

I am happy that you have found the prefect combination of speaker/amps for YOUR style and type of music you play.
I am only trying to say that what is great to you may not be great for the OP here.
I do not consider the 1964 Vibrolverb to be a cheap amp, and the factory engineers spent many hours engineering in that speaker to that amp. Before you just throw it away, re-coning may give the OP the tone he wants.

Remember he did not state what type of music he plays, what tone he is looking for and again, since he bought the amp in the first place, one could assume he liked how it played when he bought it.

This will be my last response to you Arjay, I would just like to leave you with this thought for the day.

Opinions are like a noise, every one has one, they all are different and they all smell to some degree.

But, it is up to you as an individual to pick your own, and never let someone else pick it for you.

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At first all you want are Hearts and Diamonds.

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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:28 pm
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Jeffytune wrote:
I used to work for CBS in the wood shop, and I used to built these amps.


If that's true, you'll have no problem identifying what's wrong with this cabinet......

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Arjay (who actually can pack a parachute)

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:55 pm
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hahaa.. "a mind is like a parachute". :lol:
who makes up these quaint little sayings?

A properly packed parachute can become a tangled mess with a bad body position out the door. :wink: some things just ain't that simple.
I know that is off topic but I couldn't help it.... :D


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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:16 pm
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Hey Scott, if you're hunting for speakers, Vintage Guitar Magazine usually has a bunch of older pieces for Fenders. The vendors are pretty straight forward about the condition, and there would be some kind trustworthiness, due to their reputations being on the line. Don't have a Vibroverb, but I do have one 12" EV in an open-back cab. IMO They're very stout clear speakers. Art

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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:29 am
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Retroverbial wrote:

If that's true, you'll have no problem identifying what's wrong with this cabinet......

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Arjay (who actually can pack a parachute)


It's obviously missing the speakers and tolex. Duh! :wink:



I use one of the 64VVC's and I like the stock Eminence speaker. It's gives me the tone I want. Many times I've been playing and thought "Geez that sounds good." I've wondered if it would sound better with a JBL installed but I'm in the if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it camp.

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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:55 pm
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I own a '64 Vibroverb Reissue as one of my 2 amps (the other being a Deluxe Reverb RI). This is truly a great amp! I am really happy with the overall tone and the Eminence stock speaker. But like alot of others in search of the Holy Grail of Tone, I am now wondering, if I really like the tone now, how much COULD I like the tone if I upgraded to the D130F. Something to think about the next time I find some extra money laying around.

Thanks to Arjay for all the background information!


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Post subject: Re: replacing stock speaker in 64 vibroverb custom
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:58 pm
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Thanks for clearing this up for me Arjay. I think I will get one of the JBL d130f's as soon as I have the $$. I should then be able to try and compare the eminence and the d130f toe to toe. I have one final question though. Do I need to be more careful using the d 130 f with distortion pedals and cranking it more than with the eminence speaker?


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Post subject: Re: replacing stock speaker in 64 vibroverb custom
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:28 pm
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The D130F will take pretty much anything you can throw at it, Scott. It's probably my favorite all-around speaker.

However (ahem)......

Since the original posting of this thead and the occasionally-heated debate that followed, something extraordinary occurred.

I recently acquired a nearly all-original '64 blackface Pro Amp -- IOW, one knob shy of a Vibroverb. The amp came with a vintage '65 Jensen "Concert Series" 15-inch speaker. When I picked this amp up my first thought was to throw a JBL into it then use it for periodic stage work. However, after carefully listening to the Jensen and testing it with various guitars and pedals I've decided that it will remain in the amp. It's got an organic rich-and-robust tone that I haven't heard in many decades. In fact I'd almost forgotten what a great speaker Jensen used to build. The off-shore repros sound nothing like the authentic examples from the '60's.

Upshot?

If a vintage Jensen C15N or P15N comes your way you might give that a try in your Vibroverb Custom. It may put a smile on your face as well.

HTH

Arjay

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