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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:51 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
Again, there is my problem with GTs: What is a "6L6S"?

GT 6L6R duet - $46
GT 6L6CHP quartet - $91
GT 6L6R quartet - $91
GT 6L6GE quartet - $107
GT 6L6S quartet - $138

Who makes these? What are their specs?


:lol: It can be confusing as there are a myriad of variations of the same tube type, and many different brands and manufacturers. It does take many hours of study to know which tubes are which. Obviously a duet is 2 matched tubes, a quartet is 4 matched tubes.

The R series are the Russian Sovteks 5881 25 watt tubes.
The CHP is Chinese made, not sure about those (another reproduction tube of some type)
The S series are the tubes made at the JJ factory and are 30 watts.
The GE is the reproduction of the original GE tubes used in the 50s 60s on, and I believe that they are also 25 watt tubes.
The Gold series tubes will be available in matched sets for output tubes or balanced singles for preamp tubes.
The Silver series are not available in matched or balanced, so these are the budget replacement tubes.
On other brands of tubes, the ending letters on the end of the 6L6 or 5881 can also indicate some difference in the tubes, like GC or B or WGC or WXT, on and on. Some of these tubes will be very similar and some will be very different, you really just have to pour over lots of data to accurately guage which tubes are which. The GT site gives much of the info on the differences in their tubes. http://www.groovetubes.com/main.html

bluesky636 wrote:
Eurotubes:

JJ 6L6GC duet - $34
JJ 6L6GC quartet - $68


Obviously one choice, simple, budget, good quality replacement tube. Guitar Center lists a duet of GT 6L6 S for $62.95, I think that it is unlikely that EuroTubes tests the JJs that they sell quite like GT does (Eurotubes doesn't make tubes either). The GTs made at JJ are made on equipment specifically for the GTs, and are different than some of the other JJ made tubes. There is a lot of good info about why GTs are better than other brands at this website. Might be worth a read. There is no "hype" it is just good science. Science that some choose to ignore.

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/groovetubes.html


bluesky636 wrote:
If you are happy with the sound of GTs, that is great. My own comparison between GTs and JJs (even though they may not be the exact same tube) really makes me question the cost/benefit ratio of the GTs.


That's what it all really comes down to, and that's all that matters, which you like. But, you are also right in the fact that you were comparing apples...to smaller apples, with the GCs and the 5881s. :wink: 8)

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:12 am
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My DRRI came with these GT 6V6, even though they're EH they still sounded like crap and rattled. The Tung-Sol 6V6 were a great upgrade!

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I thought my original 90's Blues Deluxe came with GT, forgot I still have them. They're Fender labelled 5881, not sure who made them back then, but they sounded fine. They were replaced with Winged C 6L6s after many years of abuse...

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:00 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
bluesky636 wrote:
Again, there is my problem with GTs: What is a "6L6S"?

GT 6L6R duet - $46
GT 6L6CHP quartet - $91
GT 6L6R quartet - $91
GT 6L6GE quartet - $107
GT 6L6S quartet - $138

Who makes these? What are their specs?


:lol: It can be confusing as there are a myriad of variations of the same tube type, and many different brands and manufacturers. It does take many hours of study to know which tubes are which. Obviously a duet is 2 matched tubes, a quartet is 4 matched tubes.

The R series are the Russian Sovteks 5881 25 watt tubes.
The CHP is Chinese made, not sure about those (another reproduction tube of some type)
The S series are the tubes made at the JJ factory and are 30 watts.
The GE is the reproduction of the original GE tubes used in the 50s 60s on, and I believe that they are also 25 watt tubes.
The Gold series tubes will be available in matched sets for output tubes or balanced singles for preamp tubes.
The Silver series are not available in matched or balanced, so these are the budget replacement tubes.
On other brands of tubes, the ending letters on the end of the 6L6 or 5881 can also indicate some difference in the tubes, like GC or B or WGC or WXT, on and on. Some of these tubes will be very similar and some will be very different, you really just have to pour over lots of data to accurately guage which tubes are which. The GT site gives much of the info on the differences in their tubes. http://www.groovetubes.com/main.html

bluesky636 wrote:
Eurotubes:

JJ 6L6GC duet - $34
JJ 6L6GC quartet - $68


Obviously one choice, simple, budget, good quality replacement tube. Guitar Center lists a duet of GT 6L6 S for $62.95, I think that it is unlikely that EuroTubes tests the JJs that they sell quite like GT does (Eurotubes doesn't make tubes either). The GTs made at JJ are made on equipment specifically for the GTs, and are different than some of the other JJ made tubes. There is a lot of good info about why GTs are better than other brands at this website. Might be worth a read. There is no "hype" it is just good science. Science that some choose to ignore.

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/groovetubes.html


bluesky636 wrote:
If you are happy with the sound of GTs, that is great. My own comparison between GTs and JJs (even though they may not be the exact same tube) really makes me question the cost/benefit ratio of the GTs.


That's what it all really comes down to, and that's all that matters, which you like. But, you are also right in the fact that you were comparing apples...to smaller apples, with the GCs and the 5881s. :wink: 8)


Shimmilou,

You are missing my point.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the 6L6 tube progressed as follows: 6L6, 6L6G, 6L6GA, 6L6BG, 6L6GC, and maybe a few others. Unless I am very mistaken, a GT 6L6S is just a name that GT made up and applied to the tube. My question is, what is it? Is it a true 6L6GC? I can easily find a data sheet for a 6L6GC. Every tube made that is labled "6L6GC" should meet or exceed the specs of a 6L6GC. Show me a data sheet for a 6L6S, please, or a data sheet for any of the GT 6L6 tubes.

Again, when one buys a "GT 6L6CHP" or "GT 6L6S", what is one buying? When one buys a "6L6GC" from any manufacturer one has some (high) level of confidence regarding what one is buying. Please note that I am not talking about how a tube sounds. Even a 6L6GC can sound bad under the right (wrong) conditions.

Eurotubes testing procedure: http://www.eurotubes.com/euro-w.htm

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Last edited by bluesky636 on Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:42 pm
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I think I understand, data sheets, I have a collection of many on my computer to compare. On the GT site, select (click on) the tube that you want to know about, click the "data sheet" link under the picture. Here are some from the site. http://www.groovetubes.com/power.html

GT 6L6 GE - http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/2173_gt_ts01007final_6l6chp.pdf
GT 6L6 CHP - http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/2173_gt_ts01007final_6l6chp.pdf
GT 6L6 R is a 6L6B relabeled, or a 6L6 WGC (5881WXT) relabeled, you can find data sheets for those all over the net.
There wasn't a data sheet for the GT 6L6 S on the site that I could find, I'll keep looking for that one. I will email GT to see if I can get it.

As far as testing, Eurotubes tests in their own way (a tube tester), but isn't even close to GTs tests. If you read the link from before, it talks about GTs testing for vacuum leaks, grid currents, full load tests under a wide range of Plate voltages and currents, screen all for noise and microphonics under load (not just a reading on a tube tester)very exhaustive testing of the GT tubes (see link below). I think that the GT Silver series are only tested to the same extent as a Eurotubes or a tubestore, the rest of GT tubes are put through the ringer, with a very high rejection rate. :)

http://www.groovetubes.com/tubeprocess.html

Edit:
Just emailed GT for the GT6L6S data sheet, I will pass it on to you when/if I can get it. :)

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:20 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
I think I understand, data sheets, I have a collection of many on my computer to compare. On the GT site, select (click on) the tube that you want to know about, click the "data sheet" link under the picture. Here are some from the site. http://www.groovetubes.com/power.html

GT 6L6 GE - http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/2173_gt_ts01007final_6l6chp.pdf
GT 6L6 CHP - http://www.groovetubes.com/assets/2173_gt_ts01007final_6l6chp.pdf
GT 6L6 R is a 6L6B relabeled, or a 6L6 WGC (5881WXT) relabeled, you can find data sheets for those all over the net.
There wasn't a data sheet for the GT 6L6 S on the site that I could find, I'll keep looking for that one. I will email GT to see if I can get it.

As far as testing, Eurotubes tests in their own way (a tube tester), but isn't even close to GTs tests. If you read the link from before, it talks about GTs testing for vacuum leaks, grid currents, full load tests under a wide range of Plate voltages and currents, screen all for noise and microphonics under load (not just a reading on a tube tester)very exhaustive testing of the GT tubes (see link below). I think that the GT Silver series are only tested to the same extent as a Eurotubes or a tubestore, the rest of GT tubes are put through the ringer, with a very high rejection rate. :)

http://www.groovetubes.com/tubeprocess.html

Edit:
Just emailed GT for the GT6L6S data sheet, I will pass it on to you when/if I can get it. :)


Shimmilou,

Thank you for the information.

One last question or two.

Here is the data sheet for the JJ 6L6GC:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/thetubes ... -6L6GC.pdf

Looks pretty much the same as the GT 6L6CHP, don't you agree?

Why should I pay more money for the GT version than the JJ version?

Why should I expect the GT version to sound different (notice I didn't say better or worse) than the JJ version?

Ok. I lied. That was three questions. :lol:

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:25 pm
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Sure, the tubes are similar, but there are other parameters besides the data sheet numbers (just look at the two tubes, they even look different). Check out the pins on different brands of tubes sometime, and see if the GTs aren't nicer, smoother and polished looking compared to other tubes pins. Pull ten tubes off the same assembly line, and they can vary a lot in their operation from tube to tube. I believe that the data sheets are target parameters that the tubes are made to meet, not measurements for each tube made. That is why GT tests their tubes so thoroughly, and that is part of what you pay for. GT plots actual curves for their tubes, under load, to make sure that they operate to specs. Like GT points out, just because two tubes have the same parameters doesn't insure the same operation in an amp.

Is the extra money worth it? It's up to the user to determine. I am happy with a Chevy Lumina, why pay more for a Cadillac? :wink: And, remember that many GT tubes are just relabeled Sovteks, EH, Chinese, Svetlana, etc, tubes manufactured by others, and some are made just for GT. I really can't imagine that a successful tube company (GT) could survive over the years if it was only about hype and not about performance. :) JJ didn't develop or invent their tubes, and they are fairly new to the tube manufacturing world. Can you guess where the JJ equipment came from when they started tube manufacturing?

I just noticed that the data sheet for the CHP and the GE versions are the same sheet. :?: It is like that on the GT site (doh!), so I'll have to try to get the GE one also. :)

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:08 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
Amazing how so many amp manufacturers these days use Groove Tubes as stock in their amps. Egnater, Orange and Fender just to name a few. The hype must be working on the manufacturers too, or else they just don't care about their customers and purposefully use inferior tubes. :roll: GT does manufacture some of their own tubes, at the JJ factory. GT has also acquired the old GE equipment and are reproducing the original GE tubes (yes, exactly like the originals) with many of the original manufacturers of the parts used for the tubes, with the original materials. Fender even used GTs before they owned the company. Egnater must be getting some payola, or are otherwise tricked into using these supposed inferior tubes. What a shame. :( And now, the JJ factory is making some of the GTs. JJ must somehow cripple the GTs so that they won't be as good as their other JJ tubes. :lol: I wonder why manufacturers would use more expensive GT tubes in their amps when something like a JJ is so much cheaper? :?: Maybe when Fender relabels a Russian tube, it somehow damages it, whereas other resellers can relabel the exact same tubes with no ill effects. That must be the problem, the Fender labeler is ruining the tubes, aha! :!: :lol:


Funny thing is my Egnater came with JJ's not GT's. Maybe JJ Tesla do send out sub par tubes for sorting just to make a few bucks on them. LOL The one's in my HRDlx truly rattled, sucked and failed. Tubes are pretty much the weakest link in any amp. GT's are REBRANDED tubes. there is nothing special about them. It's name recognition for people who don't know any better. It's all in the marketing.

If the tubes are re branded JJ's, why do they cost so much more than JJ's. When JJ/Tesla sells matched pairs and quads, why do they need to be matched again? LOL Believe what you want. I trust no one. :wink: Groove tubes has the equipment but manufactures nothing. They did that years ago made only a couple of model and stopped due to tough EPA regulations.

The only person I'd trust besides myself with tube recommendations besides myself would be Ajay. He's forgotten more stuff about tubes than I can remember and I consider him a true authority on tubes and everything Fender. Some of us came from a time when even car radios and TV's had tubes and saw the gradual decline in quality of vacuum tubes. MIL Spec tubes were the norm way back and could last for decades, not weeks or months.

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:49 pm
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Hi 63supro,

Yeah, there are always exceptions, my C600 came with a Chinese output tube, others got EH tubes. I believe the standard in the Egnater is GT tubes. Yes, the old tubes are the best, when you can get good ones, you'll usually pay extra for those to be matched and/or tested also. I don't buy the big "better quality control" bit about the old days being so much better when it comes to tubes either. The GT tubes made at the JJ factory aren't rebranded JJs, they are made specifically for GT from the beginning, on their own equipment. The GT new production of the old GE tubes also are not rebranded, they are made by GT, specifically for GT (90% of which is made in USA...really, no joke it's true).

Yes, many of the GT tubes are rebranded tubes from other manufacturers, just like many other resellers do. But there is quite a bit more to it than "just rebranded", there is something special about GTs, ignore the info if you want. You may not care for their testing requirements, but saying that they are "nothing special" is just plain wrong. I've already gone over the GT testing procedure, and compared it to Eurotubes testing and even thetubestore testing, there is no comparison. And that is a good question; " When JJ/Tesla sells matched pairs and quads, why do they need to be matched again?" Yes, what does Bob at Eurotubes do with the already tested/matched tubes that he has? Were the tube testers that he uses just for show? TheTubeStore also tests/matches the JJ tubes that they sell, why? And you trust no one? Not even Bob? Your amp tech? ;)

Can't argue with you about your preferences though, you are always right in that respect. I still consider you and Retroverbial and a lot of others here to be tube amp gurus, but you seem to have a vendetta for GT and HRDs, that seems way out of proportion to the rest of the worlds experience. I know I've harped on you before about this, but I want to remind you that there are a lot of "techs" out there that will blame the tubes for all of their problems, and you wouldn't really know otherwise. "People who don't know the difference".....? Please. :wink:

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:24 pm
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For me the proof was in the playing. I've never owned any GT that didn't either rattle, sound funky or fail. I've been through a lot of tube "experimentation" in all the years I've been playing. Also Egnater's originally were shipped with JJ's and now they ship with GT's. If you go to Rig Talk and check out Egnaters forum, there are more tube failures than ever and many musicians are bailing on the GT's and going with JJ's or EH for reliability. Bruce Egnater posts about his tube frustration. The problem with GT's are one set you might have JJ's the next set may be EH the next set maybe you'll have some Chinese garbage. You never know. If I want consistent tone I'll go with a brand that I know manufactures it's own tubes and yes there are a few around. If you go to other forums besides this one, there are countless people with problems with the HRD series. Why do you think there is a HRDxx III and not a DRRI III?

Yep GT's are pure hype. I made a decent living as a professional musician and so did/does Arjay.

Oh, and why does Bob at Eurotubes sell the same quality JJ's as GT but Eurotubes are less.

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:35 pm
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I love the NOS tubes and have used them in everything over the years so when I read about GT using old GE manufacturing equipment to make the same type tubes I thought Okay!...I bought some of the 6L6GC GE tubes,I tried them in the '66 Pro Reverb,and they were okay,but changed them in favor of NOS Philips....then I tried them in the '60 Super,again okay but nothing to write home about,changed them in favor of SED Winged C 6L6 GCs and the SEDs smoked them...so much more tonal range.
There were some other GT 6L6 tubes in the Pro Reverb when I got it,no good.
I guess to my ears the GTs just don't cut it,no matter what rigorous testing or whatever they go through.JMHO.


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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:13 pm
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63supro wrote:
...The problem with GT's are one set you might have JJ's the next set may be EH the next set maybe you'll have some Chinese garbage. You never know...


That was true at one time, now the tubes are clearly separate and appropriately labeled, you get exactly what you order, preamp or output. So, there is no problem with getting a random type of tube anymore. I get the exact tube that I order every time, and I can specify Chinese, JJ made or whatever. I don't know how to make it any easier to understand; the JJ tubes that you buy at EuroTubes are not the same tubes that GT has made in the JJ factory. :idea:

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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:49 pm
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Shimmilou,

I appreciate all of the information that you have provided. However, I have to honestly say that I have not read anything that lends credance to the statement that you have made below:

shimmilou wrote:
... the JJ tubes that you buy at EuroTubes are not the same tubes that GT has made in the JJ factory. :idea:


In essance, what you are claiming is that JJ is building a better tube for GT than they are building for themselves and GT is selling those tubes at a higher price in the same market that JJ is selling in. In effect, JJ is competeing against itself under the brand of another seller. IMHO that makes no business sense from JJ's standpoint.

http://www.jj-electronic.com/index.php? ... e&Itemid=1

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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:18 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
Shimmilou,

I appreciate all of the information that you have provided. However, I have to honestly say that I have not read anything that lends credance to the statement that you have made below:

shimmilou wrote:
... the JJ tubes that you buy at EuroTubes are not the same tubes that GT has made in the JJ factory. :idea:


In essance, what you are claiming is that JJ is building a better tube for GT than they are building for themselves and GT is selling those tubes at a higher price in the same market that JJ is selling in. In effect, JJ is competeing against itself under the brand of another seller. IMHO that makes no business sense from JJ's standpoint.

http://www.jj-electronic.com/index.php? ... e&Itemid=1


+1 That's a totally ridiculous statement. The weird labeling is still true today. I've seen it with my own two eyes. On top of that, GT will only designate where the tube is made, not who's making it. You still have no idea what you're getting. This is really becoming a silly argument.
If you like GT's and use them, buy them. It costs me nothing. Shimmilou, you are obviously a huge GT and HRD fan, and that's fine. If you played professionally, you may not be. Fender uses GT's because they own them. They are usually biased cold because they don't hold up. I've proved it time and time again to myself. I'm glad they were under warranty because I seriously wouldn't have spent my money on them.

The funniest thing to me is GT stating that if you replace your GT's with the same GT rated tube, you don't need to rebias the amp. That's total bullshit if you care about your amp or your tone. That's just a great way to sell more tubes! My HRDlx was biased really cold right out of the box. I could tell immediately. It didn't sound anything like the amp I tried in the store. You should always at least check the bias EVERY TIME you change power tubes just to be sure the bias hasn't drifted due to component value change. Like I said before, GT's hype are for people who don't any better about tube amps.

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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:52 am
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I agree with checking the bias everytime and don't trust someone telling me it's okay not to when selling tubes,also with every set of tubes I've ever installed,(and believe me I like to experiment with tubes),I go back and recheck the bias later to see if they've drifted some,and they usually have.
I've seen a lot of weird things when it comes to power tubes and only trust myself to keep the amp operating properly.


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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:52 am
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63supro wrote:
I made a decent living as a professional musician and so did/does Arjay.


I remember some years back calculating "the bottom line" for my various music endeavors -- figuring in the time spent rehearsing, transportation costs, money spent on gear, and the paycheck at the end of an evening, I think it worked out to around $1.90/hour.

:mrgreen:

But to the topic at hand......

Like many here, I'm a hobbyist; my interest in amps (and related items) is more of an avocation than a vocation. I enjoy the technical aspects, the history of each model, and restoring them for fitness to play. That's the "hobby". But when I use this gear on stage it becomes a professional situation -- people are paying me money to deliver a product. Thus, I'm depending on my gear and so are my bandmates and an audience. And as a "professional" I cannot afford any gear problems.

The great tube debate has raged for decades. Likely, it will be so long after I've assumed room temperature. Have I used GT's in the past? Yes. Have they performed adequately? Sometimes. More often than not, they played fine (better once a tech biased them properly). But having witnessed more than my share of outright failures and microphonic difficulties with the GT brand tubes in gear other than my own, I made the decision to pre-emptively purge them from every amp I own that goes downtown on a Saturday night.

As a caveat, I should mention that my sole experience with GT's is as OEM equipment in new (or late-model used) Fender amps. I've never bought a GT tube off the shelf so I cannot say how those fare. But anecdotally I've seen many of these tubes purchased new by others go straight into the trash can after only a few hours of play. And I've witnessed others that failed catastrophically, usually at a most inopportune moment. It's hard to put any trust in a product with an observed track record like that.

If I cannot have my beloved NOS glass then my second choice will always be JJ's, Electro-Harmonix, or the Tung-Sol re-issues. I've bought and used these brands and they have without fail performed flawlessly. I shill for no company and every dollar's worth of gear I have I paid for out of my own pocket -- and I'm not wont to waste my $$$ on products that fail my performance criteria. If somebody has good fortune with the GT's then more power to them. Use them and enjoy them. But IMO there are better options available.

Arjay

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