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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:12 pm
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I agree that a good PCB is very tough, like point to point. '70 Marshall have good PCB : no problem. But today MOST of amp have poor PCB.

So for me in 2010 amps with PCb are not tough, are cheap.

About point to point ; IMO Turret are a kind of point to point . It so close to the "real" point to point and have the same quality : parts with wire go to another parts with wire.

The PCB in not point to point , it's another world :conductive copper between parts, sometimes to small, minimum wide, minimum solder joint. robot assembling.

This is very very far from turret board


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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:01 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
I agree that a good PCB is very tough, like point to point. '70 Marshall have good PCB : no problem. But today MOST of amp have poor PCB.

So for me in 2010 amps with PCb are not tough, are cheap.

About point to point ; IMO Turret are a kind of point to point . It so close to the "real" point to point and have the same quality : parts with wire go to another parts with wire.

The PCB in not point to point , it's another world :conductive copper between parts, sometimes to small, minimum wide, minimum solder joint. robot assembling.

This is very very far from turret board


Not ALL PCB's are flimsy. If the board is thick, double sided with plated through holes you'll be fine. Mesa, Marshall, Egnater and many others have no problems with PCBs. A poorly wired PTP amp will sound bad too. Wires poorly routed and bad lead dress cause problems too.

Some of the Early Fender amps had turret boards that would start to break down because of the material they used. I think it was maybe Weber that called the condition " Fenderitus". It was in a GP magazine article a ways back. I can't remember exactly, but I think the boards became slightly conductive and the amps would get a little noisy. Maybe Arjay knows something about it.

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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:16 pm
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*******but I think the boards became slightly conductive *******

+1 --> Well known in electronics specially in old TV (high voltage) where you have to cut the PCB to isolate tracks ... :?

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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:28 pm
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""Not ALL PCB's are flimsy. If the board is thick, double sided with plated through holes you'll be fine. Mesa, Marshall, Egnater and many others have no problems with PCBs. A poorly wired PTP amp will sound bad too. Wires poorly routed and bad lead dress cause problems too. "

-----63supro

I know that 63Supro, but generaly speaking PCB are not so tough than PTP. I said the same thing as you about Marshall, old Marshall.

I repair amps since few years, and all other electronic stuff from 30 years now and thats what I saw.

If you start to fix any electronic with PCB , chance are PCB break or come loose or weak. And more problems start. This never appened with point to point.

Do we see some PCB stuf working in 50 years like Fender Blackface amps ?


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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:50 pm
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stratele52 wrote:
Do we see some PCB stuf working in 50 years like Fender Blackface amps ?


Hell, some new PCB gear fails before it ever leaves the showroom floor with a customer!

Which brings up another good point I had been saving for a stand-alone thread, and that is the $@!&#*, yes goddammitt I said $@!&#* ("merde" to you, Stratele) grade of solder now being used to assemble these circuit cards and wire up the other components on a chassis. Ever since the industry switched to no-lead solder for RoHS compliance, the failure rate for electronic goods in general and guitar amps specifically has gone through the friggin' roof! I've been collecting anecdotal data from techs all across the country for some six or seven years now and virtually all have shared stories that indicate over half of all amp failures (from any company) are directly attributible to crappy solder and/or incorrect heat as applied by a wave solder machine during production.

Welcome to the new world order's "global economy", folks.

:roll:

(apologies for the hijack)

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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Hey Retrovebial I can't understand because I can't translate this;

"Which brings up another good point I had been saving for a stand-alone thread, and that is the $@!&#*, yes goddammitt I said $@!&#* ("merde" to you, Stratele "

Retroverbial


( merde to you Stratele )

This mean good luck or eat some sh*** stratele ???


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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:29 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
... stories that indicate over half of all amp failures (from any company) are directly attributable to crappy solder and/or incorrect heat as applied by a wave solder machine during production...


+1 ! This has been my experience also, not just for amps, but anything with solder joints. A former boss of mine used to razz me saying; "all you ever find are bad solder joints". It sure is, and has been, a very common problem. :)

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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:59 pm
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They can't make solder like they used to. I know people who still have some of the old stuff. They horde it like gold for their own private work.

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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:06 pm
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63supro wrote:
They can't make solder like they used to. I know people who still have some of the old stuff. They horde it like gold for their own private work.


You better believe it!

I got several rolls of the good stuff from the '60s in various sizes -- I share with no one! Nothing but NOS solder touches my stuff.

Arjay

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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:23 pm
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What kind of solder are you guys talking about that isn't made anymore? Here is what I use, have for as long as I remember.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-21-1040-/21-1040

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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:02 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
What kind of solder are you guys talking about that isn't made anymore? Here is what I use, have for as long as I remember.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-21-1040-/21-1040


I buy 60/40 tin/lead all the time at my local Ace Hardware store. The stuff isn't illegal. At leaast not in Virginia. Maybe it is in Kalifornia but then they say everything causes cancer. :lol:

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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:14 am
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bluesky636 wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
I buy 60/40 tin/lead all the time at my local Ace Hardware store. The stuff isn't illegal. At leaast not in Virginia. Maybe it is in Kalifornia but then they say everything causes cancer. :lol:


It's illegal for any product destined for export to the European market. Hence, most companies who market their goods abroad use it across their entire lines to simplify manufacturing costs and logistics.

You fix something with 60/40, it's likely to stay fixed. But the odds are good that you'll repair the same piece of gear again when another original solder joint fails due to RoHS-compliant solder.

Interesting sidenote: Military equipment(s) destined for sale to European allies under the terms of MAP/FMS is RoHS-exempt. That speaks volumes.

Arjay

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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:41 am
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Yeah, that crap that is being used these days sometimes seems like it has plastic or something mixed with it. :lol: Sometimes when trying to resolder bad joints, I can't get the crap solder to mix with the good stuff, so I have to completely remove the bad, in order to get good solder to take. :!:

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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:46 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Yeah, that crap that is being used these days sometimes seems like it has plastic or something mixed with it. :lol: Sometimes when trying to resolder bad joints, I can't get the crap solder to mix with the good stuff, so I have to completely remove the bad, in order to get good solder to take. :!:


Indeed!

The original solder needs to be completely wicked away.

Which in the case of professional techs, increases the time for repairs and lengthens the bench fees they charge.

Arjay

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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:51 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
It's illegal for any product destined for export to the European market. Hence, most companies who market their goods abroad use it across their entire lines to simplify manufacturing costs and logistics.


I did not know that. Thanks.

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