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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:24 pm
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Sorry to hear that.

The fact remains that building a head cabinet out of real lumber isn't nearly as expensive as a combo cabinet.

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:05 am
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63supro wrote:
Sorry to hear that.

The fact remains that building a head cabinet out of real lumber isn't nearly as expensive as a combo cabinet.


Of course not.

Jody,
IF.... BIG IF, your DeVille's Amp chassis plus tubes and transformers are dimensionally the same width, depth and height as a Blues Deluxe, you should be able to get away with single solid board panel as the back panel is 11-1/8"* wide (measured perpendicularly across the vent holes or from flush with control panel edge/rear panel's top to bottom edge). HOWEVER....., A standard 1 x 12 board's ACTUAL dimension is 3/4" x 11-1/4". This standard stock would fall short of a panel that would extend past the chicken knobs and toggle switches so as to prevent inadvertent damage for lack of cab eaves-like shielding as found on Marshall amps and heads.

*The dimension 11-1/8" taken should be assumed as the "depth" dimension as would be provided on an amp head's dimen. specification data.

I don't have any further XYZ dimensions collected.

What you can do is have a cabinet maker to join two solid boards along the long side (parallel with grain) to in order to get the non-standard width.
A width of a joined pair of 1x8 (nominal) would be 14-1/2" The cabinet maker would then cut that width down to 12" wide which should be adequate but perhaps 12-1/2 would be comfortable. The back panel has to be removeable so you can access the tubes and wiring from the rear.

Retro, Supro....
If you're following this, what I might add is the consideration that a combo amp's tube orientation differs from that of a head amp's orientation. the tubes in the combo are parallel to the axis of the amp's vol. and tone pot's shafts. If I am not mistaken, in a amp head configuration, the tube's orientation would be perpendicular to the axis of the aforementioned vol and tone control pot shafts. or.... when laid horizontally, as they are now verticle, they would also be horizontal and again, heat rises so jody would definitely want heatvents above those tubes.
I am visualizing this head cab in my head, and without spending too much observation time and going on memory I think the sides would have to extend past the amp chassis' current rear edge which I think is about 1/8" or the thickness of the back panel. this extension would be needed to facilitate the dovetail joint and the bottom panel of the head.
Again, that is based on what preliminary design observations of my BDRI that I am looking at.
There is one discrepency I should also point out. The HRDV basically share the same amp as the HRD. If I am correct, the control panel is backwards on the HRD to the BDRI's panel - ie, the controls' witness marks are upside down on the BDRI and rightside up on the HRD when standing in front of the combo cab's speaker. So, some of what I said earlier may require that my mental design receive scrutiny and clarifications as a result of some last minute misobservation just now noted that need to be filled in and corrected.
I think the BDRI, for it's witness marks orientation makes the design a slight bit easier whereas the HRDV' witness marks are inverted - this requires a bit more thought for the HRDV as the required vents may require some creative planning. with consideration of the carry handle
btw, I think I would use perforated stainless steel for the vent grill.
Being faithful to Fender's use of roundover bits, and styling cues will insure that the end result would look like something Fender might have made.
I'm visualizing mine in tweed but I think jody's would be black if I am not mistaken.

I am going to snag Jake's picture and if you see Jake, tell him I said thanks.
Below would be decent familiarization pic for those not familiar with the amp. Remember that the volumn and tone witness marks and lettering are oriented to be read when standing behind the amp or this side of the amp as you see here.
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:33 am
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This is a lot of work......

http://home.comcast.net/~machrone/bjr/b ... jrhead.htm

......mebbe even beyond the scope of what a hobbyist with limited tools could do (it's certainly beyond my capabilities). But a conversion such as this solves a multitude of problems, especially those of a thermal nature. And the finished project in a proper head cab looks for all the world like a mini-Marshall Super Plexi.

Arjay

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:31 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
This is a lot of work......

http://home.comcast.net/~machrone/bjr/b ... jrhead.htm

......mebbe even beyond the scope of what a hobbyist with limited tools could do (it's certainly beyond my capabilities). But a conversion such as this solves a multitude of problems, especially those of a thermal nature. And the finished project in a proper head cab looks for all the world like a mini-Marshall Super Plexi.

Arjay


Yeppers, that is exactly what I've attempted to describe in my previous response.


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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:28 am
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I would just either build or buy another amp before modding any HRD amp. Like Arjay said, I'd be worried about all the thermal issues. These things aren't manufactured that great to begin with. The expense in materials, time and effort plus the risk of turning a working amp into a non working amp would be a concern for me. The DeVilles I've used sound like tonal Armageddon to me. Sort of out of control and in your face. They lace the tonal sweetness and complexity of say a Super Reverb. I'd just get a SF Bandmaster head, re-cab it if necessary and be done with it. They're really affordable even with the maintenance costs included. Just my thoughts.

I've been thinking about turning my 74 Champ into a head and just saving the old cabinet.

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:31 am
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63supro wrote:
I've been thinking about turning my 74 Champ into a head and just saving the old cabinet.


A bunch of piggyback Champ/Vibrochamp conversions started showing up on Ebay shortly after I finished this transformation......

Image

I didn't save the original Princeton cabinet though -- some guy from Tacoma saw my C/L ad for it, sent me a bank draft, and off it went.

Arjay

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:47 am
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I could just build a 5F1 head and keep the old Champ as is. :D

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:42 pm
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63supro wrote:
I would just either build or buy another amp before modding any HRD amp. Like Arjay said, I'd be worried about all the thermal issues. These things aren't manufactured that great to begin with. The expense in materials, time and effort plus the risk of turning a working amp into a non working amp would be a concern for me. The DeVilles I've used sound like tonal Armageddon to me. Sort of out of control and in your face. They lace the tonal sweetness and complexity of say a Super Reverb. I'd just get a SF Bandmaster head, re-cab it if necessary and be done with it. They're really affordable even with the maintenance costs included. Just my thoughts.

I've been thinking about turning my 74 Champ into a head and just saving the old cabinet.


Maybe jody likes what he has but only wants for it to be easier tote around.

Regarding what Arjay said,
Quote:
But a conversion such as this solves a multitude of problems, especially those of a thermal nature.


It seems to me that Arjay thinks that the relocation of the tubes will help resolve the problems associated with thermal issues. They may not resolve all thermal issues but I would think that it's far better to put the tubes on top than beneath the heart of the amplifier - the circuits - this orientation alone dramatically reduces the ambient temperature of the amp's interior enviroment by means of the external placement of the tube itself and the fact that heat rises. When tube induced heat is trapped inside that chassis, with no way to escape, the ambient temperature difference can be just enough to be too much for a given component causing it to fail.

For stock Hot Rod Series combo amps, I think a real cheap no expense mod would be to simply remove the back cover so as to allow the heat to escape rather than thermally compress itself to higher temperatures. I am tempted to make a cheap back panel and do some thermal tests. A laser thermometer pointed along the chrome control panel at each knob, switch, button and jack under a variety of conditions would easily reveal a more accurate thermal comparison of the result of a simple back panel removal.
I don't have a laser thermometer but for the time being, my multimeter includes a thermocouple which I could stick inside the amp's enclosure and test closed with the back panel installed and open with back panel removed and placed above the tubes and around the amp enclosure to get various ambient readings under idle and intense playing.
Probably an all day project.
Make a cheap ventilated panel and compare the difference between open, closed and vented situations.

IMHO, a vented back panel would be a pretty cheap design revision by Fender. In fact, if my suspicions are true, it "may" also address other problems not yet considered to be associated with component failure.
Metal expands and contracts when heated and cooled. Some of the circuit components are miniature in size so they are at greater risk than a larger tracing or wires and thin solder joints. Under such heated conditions, their meantime between failures (MBF) specifications may be dramatically reduced as a result of poor ventilation design. It's happened before in other engineering designs and there's no reason why this possibility cannot apply also to these particular amps.

Mind you that I DO recognise that old amps were built with far better materials than their modern counterparts.

EVERYTHING was built better 50+ years. Even old time junk mail was probably UNION printed.
I've always been pinning 1960 as the year everything started going downhill. A decade later that downhill $@!&# got steeper and with each passing decade even more steeper. Now, we're just fallin' with the sky.
Can I get an AAAAAHHHHHHH! :shock: 8)


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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:17 pm
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The only way to solve the thermal problems with the HRD series amps would have been to use better components. Even my BYOC pedals have thick boards with plated through holes. LOL. Even if the chassis wa a little thicker it would help dissipate some heat.

Fender has built amps with the tubes facing downward for decades without problems. It's all just huge profits with poor designs, cheap components and cheap labor. It's not just Fender, it's everyone. My Egnater's made in China and inspected and tested here. It's really surprisingly well built and well designed. No heat problems at all. It really well ventilated. I can deal with tube problems, I can't deal with poor design problems.

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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:01 pm
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63supro wrote:
The only way to solve the thermal problems with the HRD series amps would have been to use better components. Even my BYOC pedals have thick boards with plated through holes. LOL. Even if the chassis wa a little thicker it would help dissipate some heat.

Fender has built amps with the tubes facing downward for decades without problems. It's all just huge profits with poor designs, cheap components and cheap labor. It's not just Fender, it's everyone. My Egnater's made in China and inspected and tested here. It's really surprisingly well built and well designed. No heat problems at all. It really well ventilated. I can deal with tube problems, I can't deal with poor design problems.


Supro,
Below is just one outlet that could probably build you a PCB that would make you happy.
http://www.pcbexpress.com/

Want a thicker chassis?
http://www.protocase.com/products/index.php?e=Ushape

the services and stuff are out there....


Need a sheet metal bender?
Image

How about an ironworker?
http://www.bmt-usa.com/prod01.htm

Wanna punch holes?
http://www.unipunch.com/
Too slow for ya?
Grab a Beam Dynamics Laser machining center
http://www.beamdynamics.com/

Need a band saw?
http://www.tannewitz.com/tannwood/prod03.asp

The list is endless.
One could make an amplifier so designed that it would make an aerospace engineer cry.


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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:18 am
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Twinhit wrote:
The list is endless.


Not so my patience.

I'd rather just play my guitar.

Arjay

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:44 am
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Twinhit,

I already have a PCB amp built the way I like it. Egnater did it. Thick double sided board with plated through holes, no ribbon connectors, heat-sinks on all critical heat sensitive components, Birch ply cabs and yes the list goes on and on. I also have a 1979 cheap-ass Guild 4 porch weasel that's built better than my HRDlx was.

Arjay, my patience ran out too. That's why I can now play my guitar instead of humping a HRDlx back and forth to a tech for warranty work. I sold it and bought an Egnater. :D

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:36 am
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63supro wrote:
Twinhit,

I already have a PCB amp built the way I like it. Egnater did it. Thick double sided board with plated through holes, no ribbon connectors, heat-sinks on all critical heat sensitive components, Birch ply cabs and yes the list goes on and on. I also have a 1979 cheap-$@! Guild 4 porch weasel that's built better than my HRDlx was.

Arjay, my patience ran out too. That's why I can now play my guitar instead of humping a HRDlx back and forth to a tech for warranty work. I sold it and bought an Egnater. :D


Your love affair with the HRD is legendary, supro. I will not dispute that.
However, other people have different tastes and like their HRD as much you like your Egnater and I won't dispute that either.

Jody likes his amps but would like to see them come in a head version. Fender don't make 'em and I am just throwing ideas out there. Nothing more.


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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:24 am
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Twinhit wrote:
[Fender don't make 'em and I am just throwing ideas out there. Nothing more.


You sure have the market cornered regarding good advice.

Meanwhile you still haven't managed to post any pics of your BD with the Celestion Gold or any of your other grandiose ideas that have come to fruition.

And it's oh-so-difficult to put up images on a discussion forum......(even the stoopid red-neckin'-mofo typing this response can manage that!).

Visual proof = street cred.

Arjay

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:44 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
Twinhit wrote:
[Fender don't make 'em and I am just throwing ideas out there. Nothing more.


You sure have the market cornered regarding good advice.

Meanwhile you still haven't managed to post any pics of your BD with the Celestion Gold or any of your other grandiose ideas that have come to fruition.

And it's oh-so-difficult to put up images on a discussion forum......(even the stoopid red-neckin'-mofo typing this response can manage that!).

Visual proof = street cred.

Arjay



Quote:
Visual proof = street cred.


Is that what she said?


As far as pics of the gold go, I'll post 'em when I'm ready and.... it may matter to you and others prove something bout yourselves, but it doesn't mean diddly to my self esteem if I post pics or not.

Furthermore, I don't claim to be a know-it-all that's got a corner on the market. Like I said, just tossin' ideas around. No big deal to me if jody ignores them. That's Jody's choice.
The way I figure it, somebody else may know something I don't. But that somebody else may not have thought of something I have.
When I said that Fender don't make em... I referred to an obvious truth.

Jody asks "Why doesn't fender offer more tube HEADS??????"

Quote:
I need a all tube head, not a dang combo, and would prefer a Fender head! I lug around a fender vibratone speaker cabinet every where I go (bout 2 gigs a week) and tired of lugging my Fender 'combo' amp around for head use only. I currently use a Blues JR for small venues and use my Hot Rod DeVille 212 amp for the larger gigs were I need more volume. Here's the catch, I'm just using those amps for HEADS only, and don't even use the speakers. I notice most other amp manufactures offer the same amps in head only and combo. So, why doesn't Fender offer a Blues JR HEAD, a Hot Rod Deville HEAD, or a blue Deluxe HEAD?


Ok, so Fender doesn't make a head. To make cabinet isn't that hard if you know what your doing and have to the right tools to do the job. I pointed out that there are similarities and differences between a head and combo specifically touching upon the fact that head amps typically have their tubes above their metal enclosure and that combos' tubes are typically below. Someone might say "everybody knows that", good but it needs to be pointed out that simply yankin' a combo amp from a combo cab and putting into an amp head cab isn't necessarily without risks.
I suggested that he might consider a conversion and I sought to throw some ideas and considerations to ponder. As a result, you share a link that illustrates the idea that I had concerning reorienting the tube socket location so that the amp can be compact and provide potentially improved thermal control.
These thoughts were shared with DIY in mind. Unless, Jody has the tools, time and skill to DIY this himself, he would be better off getting a cab maker to make one for him but it's generally accepted that traditional cabinetmakers don't mess with electronics and sheetmetal as part of their mfging processes. So... If Jody wants to go the complete DIY combo to head conversion route, he will have to know a little bit about metal fab, electronics, and woodworking and have the tools necessary to do the job. Otherwise he will have to outsource the work and coordinate between services IF he doesn't simply take it to a amp repair shop and let them handle the modifications required.
All of this is for a HRDV and or BJ mind you, but IF he likes the sounds he is getting out of his amps, and wants to do it. That is his perogative.


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