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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:34 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Retroverbial wrote:
So how many watts does the 236HP powerplant in my Toyota Tacoma produce?

And no -- it's not a "trick" question. All physics majors know the formula required for conversion.

Arjay


175985.169792 watts

1 horsepower = 745.699872 watts

1 horsepower = 550 ft-lb force

Is this a 4.0L V6 made after 2004?


By the way... How would you liken the subject?
Watts is to horsepower
Amps is to ?? torque or work which the amount of force?
Volts?

What we are talking about is the amount of energy to push and pull(?) the speaker cone back and forth thus moving air. Low frequencies are harder to push than high frequencies for a given size speaker at a given force intensity. It is this force that is required to move a given frequency at a given level measured in dB.

We know that to move a bass guitar's low frequency notes to a dB level
there has to be more oomph to do so than the high frequencies. Consider a Celestion 300w speaker
Now, you can get a 300w orange label series in 10, 12 and 15 inch sizes.
Each are rated at 300w
Each have a 2.5" voice coil
Sensitivity and Frequency Range differs:

10" 97dB
Frequency Range 70-4000Hz

12" 99dB
Frequency Range 50-4000Hz

15" 99dB
Frequency Range 47-4000Hz

Now enter the 400W 15" speaker
Power Rating 400W
Sensitivity 98dB
Frequency Range 42-3500Hz
Voice coil diameter 3in.

Now enter the 12in Celestion Blue
Power Rating 15W
Sensitivity 100dB
Frequency range 75-5000Hz
Voice coil diameter 1.75in

I am trying to understand the point of speakers having a higher watt rating.
It's easy to say when one says because there are higher watt amps.
Why are there higher watt amps?
I suspect has something to do with the ability to project a given frequency range at a given volume. Now, if this were true, then the Celestion Blue would be quite an efficient speaker at projecting a similar frequency at only 15 watts opposed to a 400w speaker requiring greater amp output at a near common dB value.
Or...... Is it a case where the dB:Frq ratio differs dramatically in a 15w amp versus say... a 50w amp.
Thus......
A 15w AC15 w Blue speaker is not as punchy as a 40w Fender with a 50w Gold nor is it as farty as a Fender Special Design Eminence speaker.
The AC15 is a gentleman and lover. Not a fighter nor a pig in the pokey.

Have I got that right or should I go ahead and hang myself anyway?


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:32 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
So how many watts does the 236HP powerplant in my Toyota Tacoma produce?

And no -- it's not a "trick" question. All physics majors know the formula required for conversion.

Arjay

176 Kilowatts


Where do they hide the guitar jack?
I've looked everywhere on my truck for it...heck I can't even find the speakers and I know the speakers in that cab can't handle that wattage!!
:wink:

-T

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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:55 am
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Twinhit wrote:
1 horsepower = 550 ft-lb force


Close but no cigar. Force and power are not in the same category because power includes time as a factor so there is no simple straight conversion like the one you showed. It's like comparing temperature to BTUs. The biggest difference between force and power is whether any work gets done. You can exert force all day long and still do no work. Apply 80 lb/ft of torque to a wheel lug that was tightend to 90 lb/ft and it won't turn. Hold that torque all day long and it still won't turn and tired though your arms may be at the end of the day you have still done no work. The confusion that arises between power and force comes from the descriptors "pounds" and "feet" per time. An average horse can lift approximately 550 pounds one foot every second. The revised formula should read:

1 Horsepower = 550 pounds per foot per second.

It may seem like a small difference but it's not. It's actually a huge difference. In your example you compared horsepower to torque. Torque is a word used to describe torsional force. Power decribes the ability to do work. The revised formula shows a horse can do X amount of work in Y amount of time. Torque is not mentioned at all and when you think about it the numbers don't add up anyway. Even a huge stationary diesel displacing thousands of cubic inches and turning only 700 RPM at red line wouldn't have a horspower to torque ratio of 1:550. It would probably be closer to 1:5.5.

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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:07 am
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tyronne wrote:
Where do they hide the guitar jack?
I've looked everywhere on my truck for it...heck I can't even find the speakers and I know the speakers in that cab can't handle that wattage!!
:wink:

-T


Excellent question and it brings to light a little known fact. The truck is actually just the power amp. The input jack is on the pre-amp which is sold separately and is towed using the trailer hitch. See your dealer for details. Of course you'll have to speak with Marty McFly for the speaker cabinets.
;^)

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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:23 am
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LOLOL

In truth, the pickup is the power supply -- mine has the optional 400-watt 117VAC power converter built into the sidewall of the bed. It's part of the TRD Pre-Runner package. The cab's audio system is pretty hefty though: nine-speaker JBL/Bose set-up with around 1.21 jigga-watts. All, wrapped up in "Lake Placid Blue".

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:04 am
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Man,I feel stupid when y'all start talking. :oops:...not the funny stuff,but the technical stuff....but I'm used to it,I sit in meetings with engineers often....and keep my mouth shut. :wink:


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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:41 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:33 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
LOLOL

In truth, the pickup is the power supply -- mine has the optional 400-watt 117VAC power converter built into the sidewall of the bed. It's part of the TRD Pre-Runner package. The cab's audio system is pretty hefty though: nine-speaker JBL/Bose set-up with around 1.21 jigga-watts. All, wrapped up in "Lake Placid Blue".

:mrgreen:

Arjay


Hey Doc, with my hearing, I need one of those 7 foot woofers and an amp to die for to move it.


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:17 pm
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i think there are not that much variety

i have used both

it actually depends on conditions though
:)


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:35 pm
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Hey BMW-KTM, that torque- horsepower explanation is very cool ! As a retired semi-truck owner operator, I'm familiar with that ratio. Guys couldn't grasp that a 285hp engine could deliver 1040 ft/lb to the axles, while the 400hp engines delivered 1100ft/lb, but the truck seemed much more powerful. It's that time differential you pointed out. The more ponies, the sooner that torque is achieved. Yeah, off topic. Art

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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:32 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Twinhit wrote:
1 horsepower = 550 ft-lb force


Close but no cigar. Force and power are not in the same category because power includes time as a factor so there is no simple straight conversion like the one you showed. It's like comparing temperature to BTUs. The biggest difference between force and power is whether any work gets done. You can exert force all day long and still do no work. Apply 80 lb/ft of torque to a wheel lug that was tightend to 90 lb/ft and it won't turn. Hold that torque all day long and it still won't turn and tired though your arms may be at the end of the day you have still done no work. The confusion that arises between power and force comes from the descriptors "pounds" and "feet" per time. An average horse can lift approximately 550 pounds one foot every second. The revised formula should read:

1 Horsepower = 550 pounds per foot per second.

It may seem like a small difference but it's not. It's actually a huge difference. In your example you compared horsepower to torque. Torque is a word used to describe torsional force. Power decribes the ability to do work. The revised formula shows a horse can do X amount of work in Y amount of time. Torque is not mentioned at all and when you think about it the numbers don't add up anyway. Even a huge stationary diesel displacing thousands of cubic inches and turning only 700 RPM at red line wouldn't have a horspower to torque ratio of 1:550. It would probably be closer to 1:5.5.


There is a difference between rotary and linear work. They are not the same. Foot-Lb and Lb-feet

Horsepower is how quickly you can apply torque over a given distance.
Have you ever wondered why a 292hp Cummins can do the same job as a 425hp Cat? Horsepower doesn't mean squat, it's the torque.
Regardless if the transmission is an 9 spd or 13 spd or 15spd or 18spd or
5&3 or 5&4.
Cummins like to run at high rpms 2000 rpm, Cats don't mind low rpm. 1300-1400rpm where their peak tq lies and will hold a gear whereas Cummins will fall off it's peak hp and you have choose between holding that gear & boiling water or toss a gear, 9.9 out of ten, you gear down.
the speed variation isn't that much but over a great distance, it does.

Also, whatever horsepower your car or truck is rated at, it's the peak hp @ x rpm and efficient operation is typically below the peak torque.
I have a 58 Chevrolet Apache 32 with a 502 BB Chevy. The engine produces 440 hp @ 5200 rpms and 515 ft-lb torque @ 3500 rpm
The transmission is an SM465 4 spd truck tranny with granny low and a Gear vendor's overdrive. The rear axle is a 4.10:1.
On paper, this truck's power to ground in granny low is something to the tune of 13,000 ft lbs. Top speed is about 150 mph @ 5200 rpm in overdrive.

If a Fender champion 600 is a Geo Metro, then what do you suppose a Ampeg SVT4pro would be? Lots of watts there.... Certainly a waste of money to amplify a mandolin, don't you think? That's like tooling around in medium duty truck like a 26,000 GVW rated 12' flatbed when you could
do the same job with nothing more than a 235 cid I6 Chevy 5400 snubnose made in 1951.

That's talkin' the recipricating internal combustion engine produced power. Which is regarded as a very inefficient design.

Then there electric motors.
Fractional hp to 500+ hp electric motors the common residential and commercial single phase and industrial three phase which operate at
higher voltages that allow a motor to require less amps thus run cooler
and more efficiently with a much smaller dent to the utility bill's cost
thus reducing operating expense.

So.... that being said, it requires something to flex that speaker's cone reciprocating action and you'll notice it isn't high frequencies that reciprocate the most distance, but low frequencies.
But just what is that "something"? Is it watts? Amps?
Again, if you wanted to project a CLEAN 30 hz single note up to a metered 100 dB threshold, and the speaker is capable, to reach that dB could I do it with a 20w or 60w? 100w? 200w? 300w? 400w? 800w?, a thousand?

I've read somewhere that the louder and longer you play, the hotter the amp becomes.
Which is hotter? A 20W incandescent bulb or 150w incandescent bulb? Maybe a 1000w stage flood lamp. Now those can almost fry eggs. LOL

I am just trying to understand the darned thing while I still have whatever
it is I've got left.


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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:14 am
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You think too much Twinhit. :lol:


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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:51 am
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Twinhit you are preaching to the choir. I am all about the torque. Horsepower schmorsepower. Horsepower is for funnycars and top fuel dragsters. Give me torque. Give me lots of it. Give it to me early in the power curve and let it be Kansas flat all the way to red line.


Nevertheless, work is work. Rotational, linear, electrical, magnetic, heat exchange, change of physical state, whatever; just as long as something gets done then there was work. The application of force doesn't always mean work gets done. I was merely pointing out that you were comparing force to power. The various kinds of work have no bearing on a discussion of force versus power as there are just as many kinds of force and power as there are kinds of work. I stand by my comment. Power does not equal force nor vice versa.

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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:33 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
Give me torque. Give me lots of it. Give it to me early in the power curve and let it be Kansas flat all the way to red line.


I love it when you talk dirty, Beamerman!

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:38 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
I love it when you talk dirty, Beamerman!

:mrgreen:

Arjay


In my best Austin Powers voice:

"Do I make your horny, baby?"

:wink:
:lol:

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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:28 am
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Rebelsoul wrote:
Man,I feel stupid when y'all start talking. :oops:...not the funny stuff,but the technical stuff....but I'm used to it,I sit in meetings with engineers often....and keep my mouth shut. :wink:


Don't feel Stupid RS.
I sit in meetings most of the day with engineers who SHOULD shut up! :lol:

-T

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