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Post subject: Blues Deluxe RI: Celestion Gold or Jensen P12N Speaker Swap
Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:51 pm
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I while back I posted an inquiry about this swap and whether anyone here had done it yet.
I believe a member called stratdog had answered having favorable thoughts about it but that was about it. (thanks stratdog if you're reading)

I found an article that talked about the swap and thought I'd share it with
those of you who might have given it consideration.


http://fletchwhipp.com/2010/08/26/celes ... -retrofit/

Another speaker I've kinda looked into is a Jensen P12N (with bell). Anyone done that yet?

I am kind of IFFY on the extension cab as I have other ideas and may want
to explore building a convertable cab for a variety speakers.

Another alternative when it comes to recording are products such as the Rivera Silent Sister Isolation cab or a Palmer speaker simulator both are also IFFY at the moment.

Again this post is primarily focused on the Celestion Gold or Jensen P12N speakers.
I am hard of hearing and the volume of the amp helps me but not having a bunch of speakers to play around with, I thought I'd broach the subject again as I am really tempted to try one of these on for size.


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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:46 pm
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The Celestion AlNiCo Gold is a VERY good speaker. Especially in a Fender amp. I'd put it above any Jensen I ever tried past or present.

My 2 cents

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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:07 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
The Celestion AlNiCo Gold is a VERY good speaker. Especially in a Fender amp. I'd put it above any Jensen I ever tried past or present.

My 2 cents


Thank you for the response, BMW.


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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:35 am
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Save your money, I had a Jensen P12N that came stock in my tweed, Limited Edition Hot Rod Dlx. - I thought it sounded like cardboard - VERY stiff sounding with a good bit of bottom end. After giving it 6 months, I pulled it and added a Celestion V30 - perfect fit for the Hot Rod series amp.


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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:59 am
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JohnK24 wrote:
Save your money, I had a Jensen P12N that came stock in my tweed, Limited Edition Hot Rod Dlx. - I thought it sounded like cardboard - VERY stiff sounding with a good bit of bottom end. After giving it 6 months, I pulled it and added a Celestion V30 - perfect fit for the Hot Rod series amp.


Thank you for the response John.
Are you saying the Jensen P12N broke in and sounded WORSE after 6 months?
My BDRI has the special design Eminence speaker - I am not sure how to describe it but it seems like it had gone from punchy bottom end to somewhat muddy. Does that make sense to you?? it seemed to have
a peculiar punch on certain low end notes when new. Overall the speaker still sounds ok but I am looking for something different.
Besides all that, it would be another speaker in the arsenal that I am putting together.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:30 pm
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i have a p12n in my bdri and it sounds better everyday i play. i've had it for a little more than a year. they take a while to break in. it works best in amps like the bdri because they aren't distortion heavy. i turn my bass to 5 to just start bringing in the lows. i love mine. the thing is killer with my e.c.strat.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:27 pm
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blackstrat71 wrote:
i have a p12n in my bdri and it sounds better everyday i play. i've had it for a little more than a year. they take a while to break in. it works best in amps like the bdri because they aren't distortion heavy. i turn my bass to 5 to just start bringing in the lows. i love mine. the thing is killer with my e.c.strat.


Thank you, Blackstrat. I appreciate your chiming in.
I know that both speakers mentioned have been getting good reviews.
Both are said to sound like the originals or ..... close to the originals.
In this case, the Gold is supposed to emulate the Blue (at higher watt handling) the P12N the original P12N.
I am guessing that there really isn't a surefire way of knowing what a speaker sounds like nor a guarantee how they will sound as they age.
It's understandable that the climate conditions which a speaker is subjected to will play a role over time, and the amount of playing will
factor in the wear and tear. - duh, of course.

I understand that there are the characteristic differences between AlNiCo and Ceramic - at low volume both can sound good while at higher volumes, the AlNiCo tends to compress whereas Ceramic is apt to hold it's own.
That being said, I didn't mention it before but instruments being played
through this amp are Fender AM STND Strat, Gibson Les Paul w/P90s, And acoustic guitars to give the interested an idea.
Blues, Jazz, Country, Classic Rock are pretty much the variety I am playing at the moment.
I sometimes think that a AlNiCo/Ceramic Cab mix would do wonders for this amp.


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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:30 pm
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On the other hand I do get tempted to trade in for the Bassman from time to time.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:44 pm
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hey twinhit, the jensen site has sound samples and it kinda helps. i think that the alnico speakers are more "chimmy" and when overdriven they have that old time "splatter" distortion....know what i'm talk'n about. i saw a demo of the 57 deluxe on youtube by one of the fender guys and he discribed it as "angry sweatty pig". i won't go into detail about tone settings but the way i have mine set (with my e.c.strat) i can get that sound without the boost engaged and the compressed l.p. sound when it is. the p12n works so well when it gets broke in. it's just sweet.fyi i run 12ax7wc pre amp tubes and 6l6wxt+ power tubes in my bdri. good luck with the speaker and let us know what you decide.you can't go wrong with either one.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:38 pm
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blackstrat71 wrote:
hey twinhit, the jensen site has sound samples and it kinda helps. i think that the alnico speakers are more "chimmy" and when overdriven they have that old time "splatter" distortion....know what i'm talk'n about. i saw a demo of the 57 deluxe on youtube by one of the fender guys and he discribed it as "angry sweatty pig". i won't go into detail about tone settings but the way i have mine set (with my e.c.strat) i can get that sound without the boost engaged and the compressed l.p. sound when it is. the p12n works so well when it gets broke in. it's just sweet.fyi i run 12ax7wc pre amp tubes and 6l6wxt+ power tubes in my bdri. good luck with the speaker and let us know what you decide.you can't go wrong with either one.


Ok, thanks blackstrat, that's some great info there.
I've thought about going with both but seeing that it would an inconvenience to swap speakers every time I want a different sound.
So... I keep coming back to an external cab for that purpose.
The Favorite speaker would stay in the existing combo cab then a standard
design repetition of multiple single speaker cabs or a quick change design.
This way, I could play a standard riff that could be posted on youtube for you all to hear.

One thing I noticed was the demos I find online seem to be inconsistant combinations that doesn't help you get a sense of what to expect with a given guitar. The point being that with the same guitar and amp and the same riff, the only variable would be the speaker. This way one could better discern the different speakers.
You know what I am talkin' about?

IMHO, that would be a great thing to do and it would be of help to the novice ears in search of the holy grail speaker of his or her choice.

I recognize this would be an expensive investment but you know, if I
was able to assure a small population of players who had different extra speakers in their possession and were willing to loan for a short period of time and I owned the small selection of the most famous and popular amps, that would be a pretty darned good comparison archive.

You can name off the big names in a hurry
Fender
Marshall
Vox
Ampeg

From those four brands all others are judged or modeled or borrowed from. Sure there are many out there that have their own pedigree, but IMHO, these four brands are the famous amps still in business today.
Of those brands are the hallmark or trademark, or most desireable models.

As for speaker brands
Celestion
Eminence
Jensen
Weber
Tone Tubby

ElectroVoice
JBL
(these two "may" be obsolete old school brands)
These appear to be the most popular brands out there but then I don't know it all.

I would be sampling these sizes as a rule and anything outside this list would exceptions to the norm.
10"
12"
15"

I swear somebody's got a comprehensive list already made but I forget who. Weber I think....

Anyway... Just brainstorming. It's fun, It's cheap.
:wink:


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:27 pm
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Great idea Twinhit! It would've been helpful cuz I just went thru a bunch of speakers til I found the one I wanted, with Arjay's help of course...

I do wanna point out something, if you do test the speakers in an external cab, they will sound different when you put back in the combo cab, I just went thru that, so keep that in mind.

As for you speaker choice, go with the Gold, one of the best new production speakers out there! It took some time to break mine in, but it just kept getting better and better... now it sits in a box waiting for a new home since it got replaced by a 15" :)


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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:21 am
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cedarblues wrote:
Great idea Twinhit! It would've been helpful cuz I just went thru a bunch of speakers til I found the one I wanted, with Arjay's help of course...

I do wanna point out something, if you do test the speakers in an external cab, they will sound different when you put back in the combo cab, I just went thru that, so keep that in mind.

As for you speaker choice, go with the Gold, one of the best new production speakers out there! It took some time to break mine in, but it just kept getting better and better... now it sits in a box waiting for a new home since it got replaced by a 15" :)


Really? That sounds great about the Gold that yours seemed to improve with time and service. Maybe it's a Martin guitar of speakers.

What 15" are you using now?
I've actually plugged a 200W 15" Bass speaker into the external jack on a similar BDRI and believe it or not, there are some low frequencies down there to be had. Even gave me the idea that I might be able double this amp as a poor man's bass amp going into 4 x 10" or 2x10" and a 1x15" for recording purposes only. I even played a 5 string Jazz bass through the BDRI's stock speaker, albeit at low levels so as not to damage the speaker.
I honestly don't know if there are problems doing this or not, but it did indeed work just fine.

True about the Combo cab. That variable would have to be stressed for sure. I think IF something like Rivera's Silent Sister were used it might
do the trick. However the Silent Sister only accomodates a 1x12. So...
you can see a problem arising when it comes to other popular speaker combinations.
The objective I would want to define is:
Test the most popular speakers available
Exercise variables control to maintain accurate repetition of recordings.
Document each speaker as extensively as possible in order to provide the listener with as comprehensive pedigree or provinance data for the given speaker:
Brand
Model
Size
Watt rating
Impedance
Month/Year of Manufacture (if and when available)
Amplifier(s)
Duration of Amplifier Installation
Musical Styles played through speaker (state styles)
Origin of Service (geographic location which speaker has spent majority of it's life - also specific location is provided when available - ie bedroom, garage, living room, studio, closet, covered, uncovered. etc)
Tour Time (time on tour, locations served)
Recone? (Yes or no or unknown)
Visual inspection (damage of any kind or missing parts)

The idea of the data sheet also provides the prospective consumer the opportunity to not only hear for themselves the tonal characteristics of
x speaker but also have some idea of the physical condition of the speaker as well that can have an impact on the sound quality and characteristics.

(It would be a nitpicker's nightmare but a prospective end user's dream - would almost read like an Aerospace Inspector's X Inspection and Test Report)

A Decible meter would be an envaluable tool as well.
Climate Controlled Enviroment during recording with room temperature and humidity readings available as well as magnet temperature would be another useful plus.

Guitar
Brand
Model
Strings
Age
Pickup type

The most popular brand and model types would be considered worthy
instruments to use.
Example:
Year: 2004
Brand: Martin
Model: D-15
Body type: Dreadnought
Body material: Solid Mahogany Top Back and Sides
Neck Material: Solid Mahogany
Fretboard: East Indian Rosewood
Bridge: East Indian Rosewood
Strings: Martin SP Phosphor Bronze Medium
Pickup: L.R. Baggs Undersaddle Passive Pickup

Preamp: LR Baggs ParaDI
Neutral EQ

Amplifier: 2009 Fender Blues Deluxe
Tubes: Groove Tubes
Output: Yellow 6L6
Preamp: Yellow 12AX7
Inverter: Yellow 12AX7
Neutral EQ

Effects Pedal: None

Microphone: Shure SM57 Dynamic Microphone
Neutral EQ

Recording Device: Personal Computer
Operting System XP
Soundcard: Soundblaster Live Soundcard

DAW Software
Magix Music Studio 2005 Deluxe

These things and a bit more I haven't thought of would be entered into the database.
These would be the most logical primary guitars to test speakers would
be the most famous brands and models:

Acoustic
Martin Dreadnought (Mahogany B, S and Top )
Martin Dreadnought (Mahogany B, S Sitka Spruce Top)
Gibson J45
Gibson J200
Ramirez Classical Guitar (Concert)

Electric Guitar
Les Paul P90
Les Paul PAF
SG
ES350T Archtop (Specific pick up model when available)
Stratocaster SSS (Specific pick up model when available)
Telecaster SS (Specific pick up model when available)

Bass
Precision Bass (Specific pick up model when available)
Jazz Bass (Specific pick up model when available)
SG Bass (Specific pick up model when available)

Riff Styles (Fast and Slow tempos)
Jazz
Blues
Country
Rockabilly
Rock And Roll
Classic Rock
Surf
Metal

You can figure one speaker is going to see a lot of playing before it's done
in the studio.
(While I am thinking about it, harmonica and pedal steel guitar would be another instrument to add to the list)

57 Champ
57 Deluxe
57 Twin
BJr
HRD
BDRI
65 DRRI
65 Twin Reverb
65 Super Reverb
Princeton
59 Bassman LTD

Vox AC30
Vox AC15

Marshall 100
etc


Anyway, you get the idea.
You play the same riffs through different amps and speakers
to give the audience an idea of what each combination would approximately sound like when compared side by side.

I basically went from simple to a monster of a speaker comparison catalog.
:shock:
But then, it also becomes an instrument/amplifier comparison catalog too.


That much work demands an income, sweetheart.
:wink:


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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:32 am
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cedarblues wrote:
now it sits in a box waiting for a new home since it got replaced by a 15" :)


That "new home" is a PRRI that you have yet to buy, young jedi.

:mrgreen:

As to the youtube demo videos......fuggedaboutit. Auditioning a guitar speaker by listening to it over some computer's crappy audio system makes as much sense as buying a new high-zoot flat-screen HDTV monitor based on an ad you watched on a twenty year-old direct-view Zenith with a CRT.

Finding a "simpatico" speaker to match a particular amp's capabilties is and always will be a time-consuming crapshoot. But the journey to sonic nirvana is just as educational as the destination is gratifying. We've all bought stuff that simply didn't work as advertised. Don't let it deter you though.

HTH

Arjay

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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:35 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
cedarblues wrote:
now it sits in a box waiting for a new home since it got replaced by a 15" :)


That "new home" is a PRRI that you have yet to buy, young jedi.

:mrgreen:

As to the youtube demo videos......fuggedaboutit. Auditioning a guitar speaker by listening to it over some computer's crappy audio system makes as much sense as buying a new high-zoot flat-screen HDTV monitor based on an ad you watched on a twenty year-old direct-view Zenith with a CRT.

Finding a "simpatico" speaker to match a particular amp's capabilties is and always will be a time-consuming crapshoot. But the journey to sonic nirvana is just as educational as the destination is gratifying. We've all bought stuff that simply didn't work as advertised. Don't let it deter you though.

HTH

Arjay


That's the part I forgot to mention.
Disclaimer: People do not listen to these audio samples through crappy computer speakers.
Buy Arjay's
:wink:


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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:46 am
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Well as many people know, I'm notoriously lazy, twinhit.

I mostly rely on what Leo Fender and Harvey Gerst gave us.

:mrgreen:

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY


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