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Post subject: Speaker Wattage
Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:57 pm
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Can someone explain why speaker wattages are not more consistently matched to the amp?

For example:
A Blues Jr. (15 watts) has a 50 watt speaker in it.
A Blues Deluxe (40 watts) also has a 50 watt speaker.
A Blues DeVille (60 watts) has 4-10" speakers @ 30 watts (totalling 120 watts); and I could not find the spec. for the Blues DeVille 2X12", but I'm guessing 2@50 watts each.

Other than for reasons of standardization of parts, isn't there a major loss in sound efficiency/conversion when a 50 watt speaker is put in a 15 watt amp? (and 4 ea. 30 watt speakers installed in a 60 watt amp?) Seems like the Deluxe has the only close match.

Last night I went to the local and very small county fair and listened to a 3 pc. band from the region. From a distance, I couldn't see what amp the guitar player was using, but it looked small. He was getting some tremendous harmonics, so at break, I went and talked with him and found out he had an old Marshall 35 watt head sitting on top of a Blues Jr. using only the speaker of the BJ, mic'd of course to a substantial PA system. I didn't ask why...I was too shocked. :shock: It was a great sound and the band was very good....probably in their late 30's to lower 40's.

So I checked the spec. on the BJ speaker and found it to be 50 watts, prompting my curiousity :?

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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:09 pm
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I don't know either unless it just has to do with the way a particular speaker sounds with a particular amp. My 20 Watt Egnater is running two Celestion Elite 80 speaker rated at 80 watts each. They sound great with that amp and I doubt I'll ever smoke them. They might not want to deal with speaker and tube breakup or maybe it just sounds bad with both breaking up.

Great question, Arjay would probably know for sure. He's great on speaker info.

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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:44 pm
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I think FMIC does it like that to simplify logistics.

The DRRI, TRRI, HRDlx, and HRDvl (2 x 12) all use the same OEM Eminence driver. The VRC, VK, 5F6-A BRI, and SRRI all share the Jensen P10R. The SCXD, Pro Jr, and the HRDvl (4 x 10) have in common the OEM Eminence ten. The "Fu-Manchu" series all seem to share an identical chicom-made 12.

Thus it reduces costs for the corporation and minimizes parts inventories.

Arjay

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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:06 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
I think FMIC does it like that to simplify logistics.

The DRRI, TRRI, HRDlx, and HRDvl (2 x 12) all use the same OEM Eminence driver. The VRC, VK, 5F6-A BRI, and SRRI all share the Jensen P10R. The SCXD, Pro Jr, and the HRDvl (4 x 10) have in common the OEM Eminence ten. The "Fu-Manchu" series all seem to share an identical chicom-made 12.

Thus it reduces costs for the corporation and minimizes parts inventories.

Arjay


Makes good sense from a manufacturing standpoint. I guess then that there is no major loss in sound transmission, especially since 63Supro gets good sound using a 20 watt head powering two 80 watt speakers. Intuitively I'd have thought that the speakers would have been too 'tight' to transmit the sound well, but that's what I get for thinking :!:

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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:14 pm
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As long as the speaker(s) have some modicum of efficiency -- say, 98dB/1W/1M -- any low-powered amp will be capable of driving them. I have a 12-watt Princeton wired to a pair of 100-watt JBL K120s. It sounds great......easily as loud as a 1 x 12 DRRI with nearly twice the power output.

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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:21 pm
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It's an interesting topic, I have an Eminence Texas Heat speaker in one of my Blues Junior amps, that's a 150Watt speaker. It sounds great in the Junior and being an efficient speaker you really get your 15 Watts worth from the BJ making it smoother and louder than the stock Jensen that was fitted by Fender.


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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:26 pm
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I can easily imagine that. The Texas Heat is good for nearly 100dB -- by contrast, the Jensen is probably rated for 95 or 96.

Good choice for an upgrade!

Arjay

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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:58 am
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RVM lead wrote:
Retroverbial wrote:
I think FMIC does it like that to simplify logistics.

The DRRI, TRRI, HRDlx, and HRDvl (2 x 12) all use the same OEM Eminence driver. The VRC, VK, 5F6-A BRI, and SRRI all share the Jensen P10R. The SCXD, Pro Jr, and the HRDvl (4 x 10) have in common the OEM Eminence ten. The "Fu-Manchu" series all seem to share an identical chicom-made 12.

Thus it reduces costs for the corporation and minimizes parts inventories.

Arjay


Makes good sense from a manufacturing standpoint. I guess then that there is no major loss in sound transmission, especially since 63Supro gets good sound using a 20 watt head powering two 80 watt speakers. Intuitively I'd have thought that the speakers would have been too 'tight' to transmit the sound well, but that's what I get for thinking :!:


The Celestion Elite 80 speakers are slightly modified Lead 80 speakers rated at 99db for Egnater. My understanding is the magnet is a little bigger. I'm not a speaker tech guy so I don't know what bearing that has on a speaker.

Very efficient and sound great in the small Egnater ported cabs. When I dial the Rebel down to about 10 watts and half volume, I can't stay in the my practice room with it. When I run the wattage at 20 watts with the tube mix set at 12:00 for both sets of power tubes running equally, I get a nice volume bump that rivals most 30-50 watt amps and stays pretty clean at pretty loud volumes. It's a fun rig. It took a while to break in the Celestions. They were a little stiff and bright at first but after a while they sound really well balanced with a tight bottom end that can be made even tighter using the tight switch.

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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:45 am
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Here is my take after researching this for years. I used to believe that the higher the watts capability of a driver/speaker the better. But what I found is that a good match may be better. It can also depend on the purpose of the amp and your preferences of how the speaker breaks up.

If you goal is clean and loud, then you may want a high powered speaker, with high efficiency. If this is your bedroom amp, and you want authentic speaker break up at lower volumes with some cone movement, you may want a less efficient speaker with a lower power rating.

The problem I have with high powered speakers is that they don't move and push air as well at low volumes, which makes them sound a bit brittle, bright and stiff to me. They also have larger magnets which makes your amp heavier. They are begging to be pushed with more power and then they sound better.

You really just want the speaker to have sufficient power handling, but also have low enough power requirements where the voice coil and cone can move at lower volumes.

So consider how your amp is used when choosing a speaker for it.

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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:29 am
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firstrat wrote:
Here is my take ***

You really just want the speaker to have sufficient power handling, but also have low enough power requirements where the voice coil and cone can move at lower volumes.

So consider how your amp is used when choosing a speaker for it.


Good advice, but I'll add a little "techie" stuff to that...

The "power handling" is specified by the rated power "watts"

The magic comes from the "efficiency" rating... how many db of sound output at one watt measured at one meter from the speaker...

A 92 db rating compared with a 98db rating is about four times as loud with the same input... doubled with each 3db increase...

I got to do a lot experimentation while I was actively working as an electronic tech... and had an "Audio/Photo Club" in Germany with a loaded out stock room to play with...

Speakers make a LOT more difference in both your sound (duh) and the loudness (!) that you're going get, than ANY difference in power rating on the amp. You're not going to deafen people in a stadium with a 10 watt amp, but you can usually double or more the loudness of any amp with a more efficient speaker.

I've got a set of stereo speakers that date back to the '70s... they are rated at 98 db/watt... and 30-30kHz +/- 1.5 db... Cabinets are 40x16x16 with a 10", mid horn and piezo tweeter... Old US made Fisher stuff from before it became an overseas brand...

They've been used as the ONLY set of speakers filling a full sized theater with sound and we weren't even driving them full out with a 400 watt amp... The 98db efficiency gave us the volume (and the other specs a very clean sound)

We put them up on the shelf where the original theater speakers had been mounted and they worked amazingly well...

Something to remember though, if you drive the amp hard enough you hit the range where it "clips" the AC component of the signal ends up being a square wave...

That puts nearly a DC current to the speakers and generally exceeds the rated wattage of the amp by a significant amount (being nearly pure DC instead of actual music)

You can EASILY blow a 150 watt speaker with a 25 watt amp just by turning the amp up to it's max and overdriving it's input into clipping...

Generally I'd use a speaker rated at twice the amp's power... but that's because I can't count on being the only one touching the volume knob...

My rule of thumb is to look for a more efficient speaker for a louder sound, and a higher power rating to keep speaker distortion from changing how your amp's output really sounds...

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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:44 am
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tchall wrote:
You can EASILY blow a 150 watt speaker with a 25 watt amp just by turning the amp up to it's max and overdriving it's input into clipping...


+1

A good object lesson that definitively proves this hypothesis is seeing any number of vintage or re-issue Fender Super Reverbs with blown drivers. This amp is commonly equipped with a quartet of 25-watt speakers, with a theoretical combined power-handling capability of 100 watts. The SR is capable of 50 watts when driven to clipping, so how is it that these Jensens, Oxfords, or CTS speakers end up as toast? Easy answer......like any speaker, they simply do not like square-waves.

Great post, TC.

BTW, my primary stereo speakers are as old as yours (perhaps older, even). Bought them near the end of my second tour o'seas. JBL L100A's......they don't make them like that anymore.

Arjay

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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:49 am
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Quote:
My rule of thumb is to look for a more efficient speaker for a louder sound, and a higher power rating to keep speaker distortion from changing how your amp's output really sounds...


I think that is the common mindset when working with stereo equipment. However, musicians, particularily guitar players, have much different requirements. We tend to like distortion, particularily from the power amp and speaker.

what if I have a practice amp, and I want to be able to get the power section turned up louder, not to clipping necessarily, but ito a sweet spot and get the speaker breaking up, and more efficient speaker is not the answer, for the reasons you stated. To do this without increasing the volume, a less efficient speaker is in order

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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:37 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
BTW, my primary stereo speakers are as old as yours (perhaps older, even). Bought them near the end of my second tour o'seas. JBL L100A's......they don't make them like that anymore.

Arjay


Mine, as you probably guessed, came from that same Rod and Gun Club at Schweinfurt FRG...

They had a leak in the basement and when the insurance claims guy came in he wrote off EVERYTHING in that room...

My speakers were over a grand each in the US... got 'em for $200 each... in 1980...

They weigh 88 pounds but the sound is still better than any modern speakers I've auditioned<G>

Currently they're on the matrix sound output from the TV being driven by an classic Pioneer 50W+50W receiver that I picked up at the Goodwill for $5...

My Sony surround amp blew, and I've been enjoying the psuedo 5.1 sound so well I haven't missed it yet<G>

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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:43 pm
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I prefer the older direct-coupled Pioneers with their discreet-component construction over that new FET op-amp stuff. My 100W/100W VSX-5000 (main system for the living room) weighs about 30 lbs while in my shop I have an old 50W/ch SX-750. That chingalero weighs close to fifty!

Arjay

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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:19 pm
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firstrat wrote:
Quote:
My rule of thumb is to look for a more efficient speaker for a louder sound, and a higher power rating to keep speaker distortion from changing how your amp's output really sounds...


I think that is the common mindset when working with stereo equipment. However, musicians, particularly guitar players, have much different requirements. We tend to like distortion, particularly from the power amp and speaker.

what if I have a practice amp, and I want to be able to get the power section turned up louder, not to clipping necessarily, but ito a sweet spot and get the speaker breaking up, and more efficient speaker is not the answer, for the reasons you stated. To do this without increasing the volume, a less efficient speaker is in order


A lower efficiency speaker is going to work as you say, with some exceptions...

Most "distortion" that people are trying to create is not generated by mechanical problems in the speaker itself...

Controlled distortion in the degree and type desired isn't something you can get when the speaker/driver is being damaged by over currents pushing the motion of the voice coil past it's designed throw limits...

It's generated in the voltage levels of one stage in the amp overdriving the next, with various adjustments made to the frequency envelope to emphasize/de-emphasize various parts of the frequency spectrum.
[/color]

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