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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:57 am
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TimsAudio wrote:
Yes, you probably can pull the effects loop ic. I'm not sure if there will be a hum from an open audio trace though.

Most of the voicing of the HRDX comes from the preamp. The main stage at the Power Amp in jack has a very flat response.

So instead of plugging into the input jack and compensating for the preamp voicing, plug into the Power Amp input with those pedals. That way, their true nature can come through. It will, of course, need that ic installed.
I think adding switches and lengths of wire on the tone stack circuitry would invite unanticipated problems.


Tim

Woaooooo!!! I tried all this pedals last night trough the poweramp in jack as you suggested (specially the Liverpool) and they all sound a lot lot more different from one to another, more like the effect of using different amplifiers with stomping each box. Really there is less coloration from the HRD preamp as you said. Thanks for clearing up that for also using the poweramp in is needed the IC chip. I tought it only functions when using both poweramp in and preamp out jacks.

So changing the IC TL072 for a TLE2072 will also benefit the use of the poweramp in? the same benefits that using the TLE2072 in the fx loop (a more defined signal and better articulation for my amp in a box pedals)?

Using my amp in a box pedals (tweed, marshall, vox, orange) in the poweramp in, also make the level knobs of this pedals control de volume of the amp (since the preamp of the HRD is bypassed and now each of this pedals are literally the preamp). I could notice more sensitivity in my strings, kind of the same effect when you have a lot of volume in the amp. I suppose its due to the fact that the poweramp is wide open, all the way up, since there is no knob that control the level of the poweramp alone. Is there a way to adress this issue?

Tim again I have no words to thank all this guidance. With your support each step is in the correct direction.

Thanks


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:02 pm
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The presence control should make an effective tone control for the main stage. The reverb too.
The string sensitivity is due to a much shorter signal path.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:12 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
The presence control should make an effective tone control for the main stage. The reverb too.
The string sensitivity is due to a much shorter signal path.


Hello Tim

I've been experimenting all this time with the power amp in jack, putting all my amp in a box pedals there, and believe me I've learned a lot. Also had lot of fun with this revelation from you.

I would like if you let me make you 2 questions.

- Does the value of C1 affect the tone when using the power amp in jack? in other words, will I hear a difference if I change C1 from 22uF to 2.2 uF when using the power amp in?

- I recognize the power amp input has a very flat or neutral response BUT still something keeps me wondering, why I have to put the PRESENCE control on the amp in 0 and the treble knob on my amp in a box pedals in 0 to avoid harsh frequencys? There is a mod of this Fromel kit that affected the power amp? There's a cap or resistor I have to mod so I could put the presence control in the mid and the treble control of the pedals in the mid and achieve a more warm sound, without harshness or treble peaks?

So many many thanks in advance, really. This will help me a lot.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:16 pm
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When using Power Amp In, the entire preamp section is bypassed, no tone controls, no volume control, only reverb and presence will still function.

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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:48 am
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shimmilou wrote:
When using Power Amp In, the entire preamp section is bypassed, no tone controls, no volume control, only reverb and presence will still function.


Hello Shimmilou

Yes I know the entire preamp is bypassed. That's why I talk just about the presence control in the amp. My amp in a box pedal became the tone stack. The way of adjusting the highs is with the Presence knob on the Hot Rod Deville and with the treble knob of the preamp pedal I have connected into the power in jack. I have all this very clear.

What catches my attention is the fact that I have to put the presence knob in the amp and the treble knob in the pedal used as a preamp both to 0, because I found everything too bright and doing that helps a lot. My common sense tells me I should be able to place both presence knob on the amp and treble knob on the pedal on 5 and get a usable sound for not saying nice and warm.

What is the experience of others hot rod owners? You guys find the power in jack too bright like me?


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:29 pm
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It's not so much that it is too bright of an amp, but rather you are using a distortion pedal.
All distortion tones are predominantly midrange and a lot of treble response in any amp will make it sound fizzy.
While its not ideal to use the presence control as your only tone control, I gotta say that most amps come in with the presence turned off.
It must be telling me something, but I'm not sure what. Just know yer in good company.
As I said in an earlier post, a EQ pedal between the distortion and pwr amp in should give you the flexibility to turn the presence control to a mid setting.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:52 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
It's not so much that it is too bright of an amp, but rather you are using a distortion pedal.
All distortion tones are predominantly midrange and a lot of treble response in any amp will make it sound fizzy.
While its not ideal to use the presence control as your only tone control, I gotta say that most amps come in with the presence turned off.
It must be telling me something, but I'm not sure what. Just know yer in good company.
As I said in an earlier post, a EQ pedal between the distortion and pwr amp in should give you the flexibility to turn the presence control to a mid setting.


Hello Tim and people

I have to say that I have been listening with attention to my HRD. Man I wish I could have others HRDv around for campare them to mine. I must say my amp sounds really sweet right now!

Tim I finally did the C1 mod, lowering it from 47uf to 2.2uf. I must say it makes the amp more balanced, since I find the bass not as prominent or overwhelming. I feel less gain is feed to the bass and mid frequencies, so the outcome is more equal volume of the bass mids and highs. It also makes the amp a little more quiet and more clean. Till this point I found to be moving in the right direction for me. Maybe I'll need to rise the volume knob more to achieve the same volume than with the 47uf in C1, but I think that's ok.

Ok, here comes the next step. Since I feel the tone of the amp advanced in the right direction, I still feel the amp with prominent bass, not louder on the bass frequencies as before, but still too much bass frequencies present for a guitar amp. Specifically I feel the low E string to show up lower frequencies that bass guitar should reach. I found an article on the PREMIERGUITAR magazine where a guy (Jeff Bober) address the bass issue in the HRDv with the C1 mod I'm talking about here, AND also a C24 (phase inverter) mod where he reduces the 0,022 stock value to 0,01 or 0,0047uf. I want to know Tim what do you think about this C24 mod? From my understanding lowering C1 reduces the gain toward the bass and mids, and lowering C24 restrict the band frequencies that passes from the preamp to poweramp. I'm right? I will like to know what do you think about this C24 mod. The phase inverter value on other Fender amps is different?

Once again thanks in advance and eager to know your answer about this.

Alberto Garcia
Caracas/Venezuela


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:34 am
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The c24 mod will reduce bass, but it will also introduce a higher band of treble frequencies as well.
In my experience, it also scoops the mids out more.
The c1 mod only affects bass cutoff.
If you want less bass, take the c1 mod down to 1uf or even .68uf, like Marshalls use.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:18 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
The c24 mod will reduce bass, but it will also introduce a higher band of treble frequencies as well.
In my experience, it also scoops the mids out more.
The c1 mod only affects bass cutoff.
If you want less bass, take the c1 mod down to 1uf or even .68uf, like Marshalls use.


Hello Tim

Long time without coming back to this forum. Been very happy making music.
Resuscitating the topic here.
I have realized that lowering the value of C1 not only affects the bass response of the amp, but ALSO changes the gain structure of the first stage. Right now I have 2.2uf in C1 and the amp now seems to never break up. Very happy with the bass reduction and the more traditional signal, but not so happy with the uber clean amp that never breaks up.
What will happen if I change C1 to 22uf restoring some desirable gain and reduce C24 from .022uf to .006 uf? Will I achieve the same bass response than C1 with 2.2uf? Changing C24 also alters the gain structure of the amp?

Thanks in advance
By the way happy birthday, happy new year


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:27 pm
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Welcome back to the forum.
Changing C24 will cut bass, but will also kill mids and reverb.
If you need more gain from the first stage, a common mod is to go to a 220K plate resistor. This also gives a buit more bounce to the tone.
If you want touch sensitive breakup, change the cathode resistor, R5, from 1.5K to 2.7K, 3.3K, or 4.7K for increasing sensitivity to string pressure. It causes tube breakup by changing the center of the operating point of the tube.
I would also recommend the TBV mod I posted last year.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:08 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
Welcome back to the forum.
Changing C24 will cut bass, but will also kill mids and reverb.
If you need more gain from the first stage, a common mod is to go to a 220K plate resistor. This also gives a buit more bounce to the tone.
If you want touch sensitive breakup, change the cathode resistor, R5, from 1.5K to 2.7K, 3.3K, or 4.7K for increasing sensitivity to string pressure. It causes tube breakup by changing the center of the operating point of the tube.
I would also recommend the TBV mod I posted last year.


Thank you very much for the reception Tim

Ok. So I better stay with 2.2uf C1 with the bass response that I like, and change just the plate resistor to 220K, but which number is that resistor? The other cathode resistor (R5) you mentioned affects only the clean mode? where can I find your TBV mod?

Thanks in advance


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:17 am
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algajgg wrote:
TimsAudio wrote:
Welcome back to the forum.
Changing C24 will cut bass, but will also kill mids and reverb.
If you need more gain from the first stage, a common mod is to go to a 220K plate resistor. This also gives a buit more bounce to the tone.
If you want touch sensitive breakup, change the cathode resistor, R5, from 1.5K to 2.7K, 3.3K, or 4.7K for increasing sensitivity to string pressure. It causes tube breakup by changing the center of the operating point of the tube.
I would also recommend the TBV mod I posted last year.


Thank you very much for the reception Tim

Ok. So I better stay with 2.2uf C1 with the bass response that I like, and change just the plate resistor to 220K, but which number is that resistor? The other cathode resistor (R5) you mentioned affects only the clean mode? where can I find your TBV mod?

Thanks in advance


Hello Tim

I made a research and found you maybe refer to R57 and R58 plate load resistors. Right now my amp has the Fromel mod metal film 1/2 watt 100K (R58) and 1/2 watt 82K (R57). Which one do you recommend me to change? Should I use metal film again?

A common problem with the Hot Rod Deluxe and Deville is that for reaching power tube break up is necessary to raise the volume to very loud levels and at the cost of a not so pleasant tone. Rising the value of this plate resistors will let this amps achieve power tube breakup at lower levels of volume? is this the cure for this common problem for this amps?

Thanks in advance again


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:07 am
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Good morning. I just put a Fromel kit in my HRD Texas Red. Very happy with it. Was easy to install great instructions. I went with the global volume mod. I had lifted solder pads under the 470k resistors and the board had gotten hot. I was getting intermittent trouble with it. All better now. I also got a kit for my son he has the same Texas Red amp. I am new to the forums so hope this makes it up. have a great day


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:06 am
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R57 &58 are the phase inverter resistors. I wouldn't mess with those values.
I meant the R4 plate resistor in the first stage. Metal film is good.
But that is to recover your lost gain in the first stage.
For early breakup, the cathode resistor value goes up to give it a growl when you dig in to the strings.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:29 am
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TimsAudio wrote:
R57 &58 are the phase inverter resistors. I wouldn't mess with those values.
I meant the R4 plate resistor in the first stage. Metal film is good.
But that is to recover your lost gain in the first stage.
For early breakup, the cathode resistor value goes up to give it a growl when you dig in to the strings.


Thanks again Tim
Should I keep R4 and R5 with carbon comp resistors or will be better with metal film?


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