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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:20 pm
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This is how I install the new sandbox resistors. In this case, its a BDRI.

Image

Hot melt glue is stiff enough to support the jacks. Silicone is too soft.
Hot melt is OK to use on the jacks, but don't try it on the big caps. Its too close to the tubes and will remelt and flow down to the tubes.

Image

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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:54 pm
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I prefer these:

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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:54 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
I prefer these:

Image


Which is how the damn thing should've been designed in the first place!

Great upgrade, Shimmilou.

8)

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:20 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
Well, the HRDX uses a stock bright switch that affects the cathode circuit. This type of circuit provides better treble response throughout the volume range.
The Fromel bright circuit at 100pF is a standard Fender accessory circuit that improves brightness at low levels. It has diminishing effect as you turn up the volume. Its effect is gone by 1/2 volume.
It doesn't work as well as the stock bright switch.
If you have ice pick issues, I would remove it.
The main cause of ice pick treble, In my experience, comes from the guitar.
There is a resonant response from all pickups that increases treble output at the resonant frequency.
With Tele pickups, its about 2.7KHz. With Strats, its about 3.5KHz. These are the cause. To remedy the situation, I use a lower value resistance in the volume control of the guitar.
If you have a 1meg, go to a 500K. If its a 500k, go to a 250k. The increased load on the pickups affects the resonant peak more than the overall output. This results in a loss of resonant treble and less blood coming out of your ears.
The Fromel tone stack mods that I have seen use a .015 mid cap and bypass the midrange control to shunt midrange to ground. While it makes the mid control mostly inoperative, the mod is applied equally to Blues Jr and Blues Deluxe even though these are very different sounding amps.
To me, it shows a lack of understanding of what is actually going on in the tone stack. As a competitor, I'm not going to explain it to Fromel.
The only change I recommend for tone stacks is to change the treble capacitor to a silver mica version. Its cleaner and more articulate.
If you work with a bass player, change C1 to a 2.2uF poly cap. This reduces bass response and reserves power for good midrange.
My secret sauce doesn't involve tone stacks. It makes the Deluxe amps sound better, not just different. Again, maybe someday I'll give away the store. But not yet.


Hello Tim. I'm very greatful for your reply. All you said is very important and interesting to me.

Yes I will remove the brightness mod. But I keep wondering why it's acting exactly the opposite as it should be. I mean, it's supposed to completely lose the bright effect after the 1/2 of the volume travel, but in my case after the 1/2 of the volume is where I begin to hear all the harsh and icy picky highs. Anyway I'll remove it. Just comment.

Thanks for your info about the pickups and the treble resonant frequencies. Comes to my mind the low input of the amp, I think it will help.

I made the Fromel mod stack. At the mid tone pot I bridge pins 2 and 3. Installed .1 orange drop at C5 (bass) .015 orange drop cap at C6 (mid) and 250p silver mica (treble) and 100K to R12. Now I can put all the 3 Eq knobs on 0 and mute the amp. Do you think is better to quit the installed bridge in the mid pot? do you think were the amp better without it and let to control better the tone of the amp?
Do you think the C5 and C6 values are ok? I have read the right value for the sloppe resistor (R12) should be 130 but this value will fatten the sound right? So what do you think will be the right balance between R12 and C1 values? I mean putting a 100K on R12 will be ok to put the 2.2 uF on C1? or should I change it to 82K?

Yes I play with a bassist and I'll do the C1 change you suggest, because even with the bass pot at 0 still feel it too bassy.

What do you think about R105, will you leave it or clip it?

I have 12AT7 in V3, 5751 in V2, and 12AX7 telefunken in V1. All of them vintage.

I have the feeling I can have a better amp with my HRDv. I'm all ears to all of your comments here.

thanks in advance again from Vzla


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:33 pm
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algajgg wrote:
...Do you think is better to quit the installed bridge in the mid pot? do you think were the amp better without it and let to control better the tone of the amp?...


Leave the jumper in place, better control of tone. I put that jumper on every amp that I can, my HRDvl, HRDlx, BJr, all have it. I did clip R105, didn't notice any difference, so I left it out, not necessary imo. :?

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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:46 am
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Let me start by saying I don't mess with tone stack values very much. Occasionally, I will raise the treble cap to 270 or 330Pf.

The common perception of a tone stack is to pass certain frequencies and reject others.
Less common is the perception that the tone stack creates the Fender shimmer through phase distortion of the capacitors. Each capacitor has a set amount of delay in passing a signal. The remixed signals interact and produce a phase distortion. The effect of the Fender shimmer is created by overlapping the treble, midrange, and bass capacitor signals in the 200 - 750Hz range. There is phase distortion there that reshapes the signal to create harmonic interaction in the midrange.
Lowering the value of the bass at R12 swamps the treble signal and pushes the phase distortion higher up the scale where there is little left of the treble signal to create any interaction or shimmer.
Changing the values of the capacitors also pushes the interactive range up or down, depending on the change.
Leo used 250Pf ,.047 and .1 in most tone stacks. The 250PF, .02, .02 combination in lead amps was used for less interaction and cleaner leads.
I haven't seen Fromels .015 used in any Fender stack.
Tying the Mid pot to ground looses a lot of perfectly good midrange signal. I prefer to make mid tones sound good instead of flushing them to ground. So I remove those mods when I add mine.
There is nothing wrong with the approach of restoring it to an old style stack. I just have a different thing going on. I feel my approach makes it sound better instead of just different.
I do the C! mod to allow the tone stack to be run at about midpoint on the controls. Running the tone controls at low setting loads the stack and muddies the tone.
The stack and volume control are passive circuits that are only powered by the suggestions from the tone caps. The circuit is very sensitive to loading and loosing its detail.
R105 does drop the signal a bit, but it does two things. It provides a stable ground reference for discharging the Bass cap and it slightly lowers the gain of the V2A tube. I would leave it in.
You may consider a slightly higher value for the treble cap. At least go with a Silver Mica.
The Telefunken is a great tube. To lower the gain in a more stable way than tube substitution, I Mount a small switch between the tubes and wire in a 10K resistor to parallel with R69 47K on the tube board. This drops the gain of the power stage for Club level dynamics and studio use. Good Luck


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:33 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
Let me start by saying I don't mess with tone stack values very much. Occasionally, I will raise the treble cap to 270 or 330Pf.

The common perception of a tone stack is to pass certain frequencies and reject others.
Less common is the perception that the tone stack creates the Fender shimmer through phase distortion of the capacitors. Each capacitor has a set amount of delay in passing a signal. The remixed signals interact and produce a phase distortion. The effect of the Fender shimmer is created by overlapping the treble, midrange, and bass capacitor signals in the 200 - 750Hz range. There is phase distortion there that reshapes the signal to create harmonic interaction in the midrange.
Lowering the value of the bass at R12 swamps the treble signal and pushes the phase distortion higher up the scale where there is little left of the treble signal to create any interaction or shimmer.
Changing the values of the capacitors also pushes the interactive range up or down, depending on the change.
Leo used 250Pf ,.047 and .1 in most tone stacks. The 250PF, .02, .02 combination in lead amps was used for less interaction and cleaner leads.
I haven't seen Fromels .015 used in any Fender stack.
Tying the Mid pot to ground looses a lot of perfectly good midrange signal. I prefer to make mid tones sound good instead of flushing them to ground. So I remove those mods when I add mine.
There is nothing wrong with the approach of restoring it to an old style stack. I just have a different thing going on. I feel my approach makes it sound better instead of just different.
I do the C! mod to allow the tone stack to be run at about midpoint on the controls. Running the tone controls at low setting loads the stack and muddies the tone.
The stack and volume control are passive circuits that are only powered by the suggestions from the tone caps. The circuit is very sensitive to loading and loosing its detail.
R105 does drop the signal a bit, but it does two things. It provides a stable ground reference for discharging the Bass cap and it slightly lowers the gain of the V2A tube. I would leave it in.
You may consider a slightly higher value for the treble cap. At least go with a Silver Mica.
The Telefunken is a great tube. To lower the gain in a more stable way than tube substitution, I Mount a small switch between the tubes and wire in a 10K resistor to parallel with R69 47K on the tube board. This drops the gain of the power stage for Club level dynamics and studio use. Good Luck


Hello Tim

Woao! thanks a lot for following me up on this. I understand all you said with logical ground and knowledge.
After all you said, I'll take the HRDvl to my tech here in Venezuela and ask him to do the followings:

- Remove the tying in the mid pot.
- Remove the bright 100pF silver mica of the volume pot
- Restore the C6 to the original value .022 but with quality orange drop
- Change the C5 from .1uF to .047uF with quality orange drop
- Leave the silver mica 250pF in the C7
- Put a switch in the R12 to switch between 130 to 100 or 86K and see if I'll prefer just one or maybe i'll leave the 3 position switch.
- Change C24, C2, C10 and C18 with Orange drops of the same value
- Change C1 from .47uF to .22uF so the eq controls could live in the middle.

What do you think about this, I'm missing something important here?

Thanks a lot Tim


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:52 am
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The 3 position switch is a nice way to preview the results.
When you sweep the treble control, you can hear the shimmer effect clean up at the end of rotation on either end.
I would expect to hear a wider band of clean bass at the bass end of the control as you lower the resistance.
That C1 value goes from 47uF electrolytic to 2.2uF poly. It is non-polarized and more articulate. It is a tight fit. Silicone it down.
Reducing C1 also improves midrange articulation by reserving power to focus on mid performance.
Every note produces upper and lower harmonics. Each harmonic is 1/2 the volume and 1/2 the frequency down to zero. The lower harmonics create problems for clean mids, so most amps are designed to limit bass in various ways. C1, the bass balance resistor in the tone stack, the output transformer that saturates at low frequencies, and the stiff suspension of the speaker all work to control bass to musical levels.
When the speaker is moving slowly at sub-sonic bass, the midrange riding on the bass wave is phase distorted. Restricting bass can let the speaker focus its power at the mids; where guitar music resides.

After you decide which bass resistor you like most, try rewiring the switch into C1. Use 47uf, 2.2uf and .68 uf


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:27 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
The 3 position switch is a nice way to preview the results.
When you sweep the treble control, you can hear the shimmer effect clean up at the end of rotation on either end.
I would expect to hear a wider band of clean bass at the bass end of the control as you lower the resistance.
That C1 value goes from 47uF electrolytic to 2.2uF poly. It is non-polarized and more articulate. It is a tight fit. Silicone it down.
Reducing C1 also improves midrange articulation by reserving power to focus on mid performance.
Every note produces upper and lower harmonics. Each harmonic is 1/2 the volume and 1/2 the frequency down to zero. The lower harmonics create problems for clean mids, so most amps are designed to limit bass in various ways. C1, the bass balance resistor in the tone stack, the output transformer that saturates at low frequencies, and the stiff suspension of the speaker all work to control bass to musical levels.
When the speaker is moving slowly at sub-sonic bass, the midrange riding on the bass wave is phase distorted. Restricting bass can let the speaker focus its power at the mids; where guitar music resides.

After you decide which bass resistor you like most, try rewiring the switch into C1. Use 47uf, 2.2uf and .68 uf


Thank you so much Tim really.

I'll try this mods and let knowthe advances in this page.

If R12 is the bass balance resistor, then which is the treble balance resistor in this amp? I really would like to have more nice to the ear treble out of this amp, and come to my mind the idea of apply the same excercise of the toggle switch with different values to the (treble balance resistor too).

What do you think?


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:59 am
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There is no treble balance resistor. The bass is lowered to match treble levels.
The treble control should be called the tone control as it mixes these two signals to sweep from hi to low response. The bass and mid controls work with fixed bandwidths to add or subtract their levels

If you can get hold of a two channel scope, the test points are pins 1 and 3 on the treble control. The bass signal is on one side and the treble signal is on the other.
The signal level on both sides should be about equal through the midrange to get the shimmer interaction to work properly.
Sweep an oscillator at 5Mv from 100Hz to 1KHz to observe the changes in levels.
To observe the phase interaction as you sweep the oscillator, observe the difference in phase lag of the bass signal.
Now switch the scope to X/Y mode and do the same sweep. At low and high frequencies where there is no interaction, it will make a diagonal line.
When the interaction occurs, the line will open to a loop and show the phase interaction. The wider the loop, the more shimmer effect.
When its working right, it distorts a midrange sine wave into a sawtooth wave, the kind a violin makes.
Leo really did know what he was doing back then. Its easy to change the tone stack, but its pretty hard to improve upon it.

Now some of you are admitting now that they probably don't have any use for shimmer, you just want clean tone. For Jazz, country, and acoustic music, yes you have the wrong style tone controls. Tone stacks aren't for you. They are built to distort.
For clean tone get an equalizer you can plug a guitar into and plug that into the Power Amp In jack. You will still have reverb and Presence controls, but bypass the preamp and tone stack..
If you installed the gain switch, you will notice the Presence control has a lot more effect on the tone of the main stage.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:01 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
There is no treble balance resistor. The bass is lowered to match treble levels.
The treble control should be called the tone control as it mixes these two signals to sweep from hi to low response. The bass and mid controls work with fixed bandwidths to add or subtract their levels

If you can get hold of a two channel scope, the test points are pins 1 and 3 on the treble control. The bass signal is on one side and the treble signal is on the other.
The signal level on both sides should be about equal through the midrange to get the shimmer interaction to work properly.
Sweep an oscillator at 5Mv from 100Hz to 1KHz to observe the changes in levels.
To observe the phase interaction as you sweep the oscillator, observe the difference in phase lag of the bass signal.
Now switch the scope to X/Y mode and do the same sweep. At low and high frequencies where there is no interaction, it will make a diagonal line.
When the interaction occurs, the line will open to a loop and show the phase interaction. The wider the loop, the more shimmer effect.
When its working right, it distorts a midrange sine wave into a sawtooth wave, the kind a violin makes.
Leo really did know what he was doing back then. Its easy to change the tone stack, but its pretty hard to improve upon it.

Now some of you are admitting now that they probably don't have any use for shimmer, you just want clean tone. For Jazz, country, and acoustic music, yes you have the wrong style tone controls. Tone stacks aren't for you. They are built to distort.
For clean tone get an equalizer you can plug a guitar into and plug that into the Power Amp In jack. You will still have reverb and Presence controls, but bypass the preamp and tone stack..
If you installed the gain switch, you will notice the Presence control has a lot more effect on the tone of the main stage.



Hello Tim
Interesting all you say about the fender tonestack, I have change all my V1, V2 and V3 preamp tubes and find out that my amp has a lot more headroom, no problem for me with the distortion you mentioned. Stays pretty clean even at high volumes. Even though when tube distortion appears is something nice and desirable for me.


My really complaint about my Fender Hot Rod Deville (and I suspect is the complaint of any HRDv gig with a band user), is that at low volumes in the clean mode (lower than 4) everything sounds balanced, even, musical and with a nice touch feeling, but ................... once you turn it up above 4 the amp change the character and lost the balance, musicality and the feeling in your hands in a very bad way, and I’m not the only one whit this complaint since there’s a lot of guys saying the same in some forums (unwanted big bottom end that I can control completely dialing out the bass pot, but also undesirable ice picky harsh mids that can’t control with the mid and treble pot).


I heard a lot of people think the fender gold label speakers are the culprits (I think they're not). Lot of users never notice this amp's behavior because they are room users and never ever pass the volume above 4. But in my case I gig with my band with it and it is a very sad situation.
At first I was suspecting about the tonestack been the culprit of this unwanted behavior (mine had installed a bright cap in the volume pot). But now I suspect this change in character at highs volumes obey to another reasons. Maybe the output transformer? Have you heard about the SNUBBER CIRCUIT Tim? Will the SNUBBER adress this issue? What do you think about this problem, could you figure it out its origin and maybe a cure for it? It is the lack of a master volume in this amp related with this behavior?



P.D: I’m still going to make the $@!&# resistor R12, capacitors C1, C5,C6,C7, C24 mods that I mentioned before, but now I see all this mods more like a fine tuning thing more than a fix for my main problem.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:24 am
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algajgg wrote:
My really complaint about my Fender Hot Rod Deville (and I suspect is the complaint of any HRDv gig with a band user), is that at low volumes in the clean mode (lower than 4) everything sounds balanced, even, musical and with a nice touch feeling, but ................... once you turn it up above 4 the amp change the character and lost the balance, musicality and the feeling in your hands in a very bad way, and I’m not the only one whit this complaint since there’s a lot of guys saying the same in some forums (unwanted big bottom end that I can control completely dialing out the bass pot, but also undesirable ice picky harsh mids that can’t control with the mid and treble pot).

I heard a lot of people think the fender gold label speakers are the culprits (I think they're not). Lot of users never notice this amp's behavior because they are room users and never ever pass the volume above 4. But in my case I gig with my band with it and it is a very sad situation.


I can't say I'm an expert at this, but I don't think its all the amps fault. Its the room, your ears, the drummer, the way we hear things? You loose the music quality when you play loud, you said it. How many street fairs have I been too and the band thinks louder is better, yes i've been there, with my ears hurting. They don't sound good. Don't turn it up past 4. At some adult band martini lounge, we'll it's not so loud, maybe its real music. Louder is not better, imo. I think the speakers make a difference and I don't think others (forums) are bashing Fender. Have you tried another amp? Maybe there's an art to playing loud. When I saw Dick Dale, he was loud with his Fender Showman and sounded good to me.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:26 pm
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jackhammer wrote:
algajgg wrote:
My really complaint about my Fender Hot Rod Deville (and I suspect is the complaint of any HRDv gig with a band user), is that at low volumes in the clean mode (lower than 4) everything sounds balanced, even, musical and with a nice touch feeling, but ................... once you turn it up above 4 the amp change the character and lost the balance, musicality and the feeling in your hands in a very bad way, and I’m not the only one whit this complaint since there’s a lot of guys saying the same in some forums (unwanted big bottom end that I can control completely dialing out the bass pot, but also undesirable ice picky harsh mids that can’t control with the mid and treble pot).

I heard a lot of people think the fender gold label speakers are the culprits (I think they're not). Lot of users never notice this amp's behavior because they are room users and never ever pass the volume above 4. But in my case I gig with my band with it and it is a very sad situation.


I can't say I'm an expert at this, but I don't think its all the amps fault. Its the room, your ears, the drummer, the way we hear things? You loose the music quality when you play loud, you said it. How many street fairs have I been too and the band thinks louder is better, yes i've been there, with my ears hurting. They don't sound good. Don't turn it up past 4. At some adult band martini lounge, we'll it's not so loud, maybe its real music. Louder is not better, imo. I think the speakers make a difference and I don't think others (forums) are bashing Fender. Have you tried another amp? Maybe there's an art to playing loud. When I saw Dick Dale, he was loud with his Fender Showman and sounded good to me.



Hello Jackhammer, thank you so much for your comment. Yes I wish I could play at that volume (4) but doing so my drummer will drown my tone almost completely. My actual fix for this situation is putting a Booster in the fx loop for rising the volumen to the desirable level BUT when rising the volumen with a transparent booster (boosta grande) and I keep a balanced, musical and even tone at higher decibles............... I dont know why I can't do the same with the volume knob of my amp is a mistery?? I dont think is the room or my ears or anithing else, because otherwise will happen the same when I reach higher decibels with my transparent booster and it's not.


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:00 am
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Your fix is a good one. By using the booster, it proves out the problem is not with the speaker or power stage.
In the HRDX, the volume control drives the tone stack. As volume goes up, the stack capacitors react differently and the voice changes. Some call it versatile, others call it a PITA.
Also, as volume goes up, minor harmonics appear out of the noise floor to change the voice of your tone.
The booster is a good way to acheive your tone at the required volume.

When you speak of harsh tone, the two main sources are your tubes or your guitar.
The quality of your music will never exceed the quality of your tubes. Especially V1. Use gold pin JJ at a minimum. You have to pay for those golden tones.

Guitars can produce ice-pick qualities through resonant peak response. All pickups have a natural peak response from their physical and electrical characteristics.
Increasing the resistive loading the pickup lowers this bright response and balances the pickups tone response.
The common way to do this is to change the guitar's volume control to a lower value. So a 1meg pot will go down to 500K


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Post subject: Re: Any opinions on the Fromel Electronics HRD amp mod?
Posted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:07 pm
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TimsAudio wrote:
Your fix is a good one. By using the booster, it proves out the problem is not with the speaker or power stage.
In the HRDX, the volume control drives the tone stack. As volume goes up, the stack capacitors react differently and the voice changes. Some call it versatile, others call it a PITA.
Also, as volume goes up, minor harmonics appear out of the noise floor to change the voice of your tone.
The booster is a good way to acheive your tone at the required volume.

When you speak of harsh tone, the two main sources are your tubes or your guitar.
The quality of your music will never exceed the quality of your tubes. Especially V1. Use gold pin JJ at a minimum. You have to pay for those golden tones.

Guitars can produce ice-pick qualities through resonant peak response. All pickups have a natural peak response from their physical and electrical characteristics.
Increasing the resistive loading the pickup lowers this bright response and balances the pickups tone response.
The common way to do this is to change the guitar's volume control to a lower value. So a 1meg pot will go down to 500K


Hello Tim

I've been reading since long time ago lot and lot of forums, searching for an explanation to the mistery of this amp’s volume behavior, but never ever found it till now. Everybody said the eminence/fender speaker were the culprit. It was a puzzle in my mind really till now. Thank you very much, and I mean it. And yeah! It’s a real PITA for me.


I have a Telefunken vintage in the V1, do you think a JJ high-performance will do it better?


Is there's a way of correct this volume problem of the amp without the booster?


I have a mexican Hot Rod Deville 2x12 (silver control panel version), but in the newer version III (black control panel) Fender claims that one of the new upgrades is "improved graduations on the Volume and Treble pot tapers". So, here comes the interesting thing. Which are this new Fender graduations in the pot tapers? Does the HRD III corrected this volume’s behavior?


The fromel mod that I installed to my HRDv change the linear pot on the volume taper to a 100K audio pot, but the treble pot remains stock. It’s ok to leave the 100K audio pot in the volume taper, will be recommendable to change the value and type of pot in the treble taper?

The Fromel mod of this volume pot helped me a lot with the abrupt change in volume from 1 to 2, but definitely as the volume goes up does not corrected the voice changing.


Does exist an easier fix instead of changing the volume pots of all my guitars?

Tim believe me I’m the forum guy and nobody has spotted this before.
Thanks in advance again. I got a feeling I’m aproching to solve the puzzle.

Best regards

Alberto Garcia
Caracas-Venezuela


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