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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:39 pm
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I have been a musician for over 40 years and made my living professionally for over 20 of them. I still have a 76 Twin that I bought new and have owned Bandmasters, a Vibrolux Reverb, a couple of Deluxe Reverbs, a Princeton, Danelectros, Silvertones, a Sunn and currently Egnater. I never destroyed a tube amp or even red plated a set of tubes in all those years.

You sir don't have any idea what my education or experience is. I do what I do, you don't have to like it. Biasing an amp isn't rocket science. I listen and measure to be sure I'm not going to red plate the tubes. Rocket science right? I am fully aware of factory specs. Tone is more important to me than being 10Mv out of spec.

You did misunderstand my post. I do use bias probes to measure the voltage. The problem I have is people telling me that an amp doesn't sound right if it doesn't have such and such a mod. That's total nonsense. I've heard amps with billm mods as well as Fargen and other mods and frankly it didn't blow me away. That's not saying the mods are bad, they're just not for me. I figure if I can't get the tone I want without modding an amp, it's gone. Scooping mids isn't my thing anyway, I like to cut a mix and it's a lot harder to do when you dump the mids. If I can't do it with a tube change it's history. I won't wast any more time on it. My ears are my best guide and I'll stick with them. Lots of people who aren't aware of what bias voltage are perfectly happy with the performance and tone of their Blues Jrs. At least until someone tells them their amp is cooking their tubes. Go figure. Fender doesn't sell fire spewing amps last time I checked.

My HRDlx was biased pretty cold from the factory, around 62mv, but yet it spent an enormous amount of time in the shop getting warranty surgery.
I ran it for 2 years at 82-85mv with no problems at all with a set of JJ's. Eurotubes recommends running them up to 90mv but the amp would break up a little earlier than I liked. Again my ears came into play nobody elses.

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Post subject: Tube bias
Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:26 am
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63supro wrote:
My HRDlx was biased pretty cold from the factory, around 62mv, but yet it spent an enormous amount of time in the shop getting warranty surgery. I ran it for 2 years at 82-85mv with no problems at all with a set of JJ's. Eurotubes recommends running them up to 90mv but the amp would break up a little earlier than I liked....


You stated that your HRDlx came from the factory improperly biased (62mV) and spent time in the shop for "surgery", and when the bias was set closer to the recommended specs (90mV) at 85 mV you had "no problems at all". That is a good point, the bias needs to be close to specs. ;)



"If a hammer is the only tool in your pouch, you'll see every problem as a nail."


Last edited by shimmilou on Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:08 am
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The surgery had nothing to do with the bias. The point I'm making is your amp will not go up in smoke if your tubes are biased a little hot. Is that plain enough for you to understand? You can still be in spec and still sound lifeless and sterile. That's where the ears come in.
Six posts and most of them are attacking me or gushing about billm. I made my money and now I'm semi retired and play what I want instead of what I'm hired to do.

Personal insults don't fly. My opinion differs from Bill's. I didn't resort to personal insults. Maybe you should try to understand the difference.

Good Day :D

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Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:16 am
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For the record, here's Bill's opinion, in a direct quote from his website, I think he made the same point a long time ago.

"Obviously, there are a lot of BJrs out there cranking away at 11+ watts idle dissipation. They're not bursting into flames or melting their vinyl covering or anything. But they'll last longer and sound better if they run a bit cooler. I've seen many older stock Blues Juniors with heat damage to the circuit board that holds the tubes, and the expansion and contraction caused by the high heat causes solder joints to crack."

He is providing solid information and an excellent, valued service to a community of amp users, and if appreciating that is "gushing", then I'm guilty as charged. It's a pity there weren't more people cast from the same mold.



Cheers,

Snowy


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Post subject: Re: Tube bias
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:34 am
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shimmilou wrote:
63supro wrote:
My HRDlx was biased pretty cold from the factory, around 62mv, but yet it spent an enormous amount of time in the shop getting warranty surgery. I ran it for 2 years at 82-85mv with no problems at all with a set of JJ's. Eurotubes recommends running them up to 90mv but the amp would break up a little earlier than I liked....


You stated that your HRDlx came from the factory improperly biased (62mV) and spent time in the shop for "surgery", and when the bias was set closer to the recommended specs (90mV) at 85 mV you had "no problems at all". That is a good point, the bias needs to be close to specs. ;)



"If a hammer is the only tool in your pouch, you'll see every problem as a nail."


Good Fine People, As the Author of this post I sincerely appreciate the valuable information that everyone has posted and thank you very much.

However, Shimmilou I must say,

"as you may well be experienced with amp spec/service/mods etc"

I find your attitude disrespectful towards a Fender Forum Legend like 63supro, to whom has only ever been too happy to share his valuable experience and assist people in need of guidence on this site.

I note that you have made only 9 post on this site and are getting into sword fights already.

I suggest that you take it easy and feel your way around a bit and get to know a few names that eventually you will understand to be the go to guy's.

Like I said mate, thank you for your input and please do share your expertise...but we are here to help, enjoy, and learn from another, not have sword fights....

Peace...... 8)


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:11 am
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......I'm thinking a couple of you guys need to chill a bit.....:?


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Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:30 am
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No457 Snowy wrote:
For the record, here's Bill's opinion, in a direct quote from his website, I think he made the same point a long time ago.

"Obviously, there are a lot of BJrs out there cranking away at 11+ watts idle dissipation. They're not bursting into flames or melting their vinyl covering or anything. But they'll last longer and sound better if they run a bit cooler. I've seen many older stock Blues Juniors with heat damage to the circuit board that holds the tubes, and the expansion and contraction caused by the high heat causes solder joints to crack."

He is providing solid information and an excellent, valued service to a community of amp users, and if appreciating that is "gushing", then I'm guilty as charged. It's a pity there weren't more people cast from the same mold.



Cheers,

Snowy


Snowy, no disrespect meant towards you or Billm especially you Snowy . The heat related problems Bill mentions are not just only problems with the Blues Jr, but with most of the Hot Rod series amps. If you mount tubes to boars there is a right way and a wrong way and mounting sockets to thin single sided boards is the wrong way especially when the chassis is inverted.
I don't feel it's just the tubes running hot, It's just poor construction techniques and materials. EL84's throw some serious heat even when biased on the colder side. I think Fender was looking for a more aggressive sound and that's why they chose the EL84. It's a pretty huge departure from the 6V6's we've all come to know and love.

kineman karma, Legend???? Nah, just trying to be helpful when I can, but thank you guys for the kind words. Arjay, Art, Ceri, Martian,Niki and others those guys are legends and share tons of great information. I just refuse to sugar coat anything and call em as I see em. Sometimes I'm a bit too truthful or my opinion is too strong and people take offense. I could have easily personally insulted shimmilou but I don't see any point in it. Opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing as long as personal insults stay out of it.

Thanks again, you guys are great.

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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:39 am
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ok 63supro

lets say you actually liked the blues jr.
me i like mine.
what would you do to your jr
about the tubes issue?
what tubes would you use and why?
i might be changing mine soon and want/need your opinion
respectfully.


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:55 am
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way cool jr wrote:
ok 63supro

lets say you actually liked the blues jr.
me i like mine.
what would you do to your jr
about the tubes issue?
what tubes would you use and why?
i might be changing mine soon and want/need your opinion
respectfully.


A few days ago I installed into my Blues Junior 2x JJ Tesla EL84's and 3X JJ Tesla 12AX7's.....

My amp sound great. As I stated in my other post Blues Junior Mods.

The JJ's really give you great tone and take out all those harsh horrible highs and they also provide great bass and mid response.

Great Distortion sound too...

I hope this helps. I won't be using anything other than JJ's for a long while.

Next week I will also be retubing my Fender Hotrod Deville with them.


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:18 am
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any other mods on that amp?
and tone changes as you go from 3 or so to dime on the amp?


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Post subject: Bias
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:57 pm
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Hey kineman karma,

:lol: That is definitely good advice, thanks. :) But isn't your post a little "biased"? Get it? The discussion about biasing tubes, and you appearing to be a tad biased yourself. :lol:

Seriously though, thank you, and point taken. 8)



"In our life there's if, in our beliefs there's lie, in our business there's sin, in our bodies there is die."


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:13 pm
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63supro wrote:
No457 Snowy wrote:
For the record, here's Bill's opinion, in a direct quote from his website, I think he made the same point a long time ago.

"Obviously, there are a lot of BJrs out there cranking away at 11+ watts idle dissipation. They're not bursting into flames or melting their vinyl covering or anything. But they'll last longer and sound better if they run a bit cooler. I've seen many older stock Blues Juniors with heat damage to the circuit board that holds the tubes, and the expansion and contraction caused by the high heat causes solder joints to crack."

He is providing solid information and an excellent, valued service to a community of amp users, and if appreciating that is "gushing", then I'm guilty as charged. It's a pity there weren't more people cast from the same mold.



Cheers,

Snowy


Snowy, no disrespect meant towards you or Billm especially you Snowy . The heat related problems Bill mentions are not just only problems with the Blues Jr, but with most of the Hot Rod series amps. If you mount tubes to boars there is a right way and a wrong way and mounting sockets to thin single sided boards is the wrong way especially when the chassis is inverted.
I don't feel it's just the tubes running hot, It's just poor construction techniques and materials. EL84's throw some serious heat even when biased on the colder side. I think Fender was looking for a more aggressive sound and that's why they chose the EL84. It's a pretty huge departure from the 6V6's we've all come to know and love.

kineman karma, Legend???? Nah, just trying to be helpful when I can, but thank you guys for the kind words. Arjay, Art, Ceri, Martian,Niki and others those guys are legends and share tons of great information. I just refuse to sugar coat anything and call em as I see em. Sometimes I'm a bit too truthful or my opinion is too strong and people take offense. I could have easily personally insulted shimmilou but I don't see any point in it. Opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing as long as personal insults stay out of it.

Thanks again, you guys are great.


Agreed, I appreciate your input.

We all need to exchange info here and discuss things with a view to helping each other out. At times people will disagree, I know I've read many posts on this forum that I don't feel are completely correct, or are skewed by the personal experience of the poster and may not be entirely accurate in the world-wide scheme of things, but I figure I'll give what I can and ask when I need to, and let people say what they will say.


Cheers,

Snowy


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Post subject: Re: Bias
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:26 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Hey kineman karma,

:lol: That is definitely good advice, thanks. :) But isn't your post a little "biased"? Get it? The discussion about biasing tubes, and you appearing to be a tad biased yourself. :lol:

Seriously though, thank you, and point taken. 8)



"In our life there's if, in our beliefs there's lie, in our business there's sin, in our bodies there is die."


All good Mate...I am glad you are positive on your response.

I think you have a lot of good to offer.

by the way....WELCOME to the forum.


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Post subject: Re: Bias
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:35 am
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I agree with Shimmilou comments (so far). Even if he offended the in crowd.

Just out of interest I think BillM already tested the extra heat of a stock biased Blues Junior output tube it turns out to be 100F (38C) hotter than when biased within spec. That is quite substantial I know I get hot when its 100F.

But now I don't agree with everything BillM writes because some of it is geared to his business.

To me this debate is science not art if you want to bias your ouput tubes hot (or outside spec right?) and saturate your tone and replace EL-84's faster than Fender can keep up with orders its entirely up to you (if you biased it, it's you problem right?). Me I'll stick to my fuzz box tones.

Which leads me to the tone debate in biasing which sounds like people are talking about modifying tone stacks and swapping preamp tubes instead of calibrating their output tubes. It starts get to easy to imagine someone with a 100W amp cranked up strum a chord and going "yeah baby that's the super high plate dissipation tone I want man" and the amp techs thinking - great I'll be able to sell him another set of tubes before long.

Oh no I just stumbled onto the whole reason why (shock horror).

For me it makes more sense to swap output tubes if you want different specs to what the tubes offer. I have no problem with modifying an amps tone or speaker to give it more dynamic range it's like free fresh peanuts.

By the way, my Blues Junior is stock as I'm too lazy to modify it.
But when I do get around to playing with it I'll be using a dummy & reactive load, audio signal gen and scope to bias it and not bias my worn out ears.


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:18 am
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way cool jr wrote:
ok 63supro

lets say you actually liked the blues jr.
me i like mine.
what would you do to your jr
about the tubes issue?
what tubes would you use and why?
i might be changing mine soon and want/need your opinion
respectfully.


I'm a big fan of JJ's. You may not like them it's all a matter taste. I'd have the bias checked just to be sure you won't red plate the new tubes. I doubt you will. That's part of the formula Fender came up with in the design and some folks have been playing them for years without incident or ill effects at all. If you replace them with Fenders GT's I doubt they'll hold up. Fender owns Groove Tubes, so if they fail, it's still money in FMIC's pocket. I've run JJ's biased on the hotter side for years in various amps with no problems.

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