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Post subject: Stupid question about valve brands
Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:43 pm
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G'day all.
There's a lot of discussion (and contention) about replacing your stock valves with other (better) brands to improve tone.

Is anyone capable of explaining to me how changing the brand of valve can affect the tone of the amp? I understand there'd be a possible difference in the build quality / durability of the valve between different brands but I would assume that all 6v6 valves for example would have the same voltages / outputs etc.

Sorry I'm pretty new to valve amps and am just trying to get my head around them and how they work.

Cheers.

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Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:54 pm
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You pretty much answered your own question. Build quality and the quality of the materials used have a bearing on their ability to handle the voltages and vibrations being delivered to the tube also effects the amps tone. A high price does not necessarily mean a tube is better. I've never had any luck at all with Groove Tubes. If I biased them hot enough to sound good they'd burn up. If I bias them colder, they sound lousy but last longer. I use JJ's because I could bias them around 85mv in my HRDlx and they last a long time and sound great. I dumped the HRDlx because of reliability problems. My Egnater came with JJ's and it sounds great. New Old Stock tubes could last decades. The assembly process was a bit stricter way back because the military used them. Thing is, they just don't make em like they used to.
Remember, An amp that's biased too cold sounds sterile and has no character. These are only my opinions as always.

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Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 11:28 pm
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Mhainz, my degree is in Philosophy, but 30yrs ago I decided to learn how these amps worked. Started with the "US Naval Basic Electronics" book, and haven't stopped yet. I was lucky enough to find three tutors in our small town from the golden era of tube technology. So I can't claim to be self-taught, their influence was key to my understanding and approach ! IMO a person can't jump into the middle of this technology and expect to understand the workings and language. I would suggest the book,"Vacuum Tube Guitar and Bass Amplifier Theory" by Tino Zottola, as being very informative. Good luck on your quest, from an old student. Art

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:07 am
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I fix amps since many years and I had no problem with Grooves Tubes. I used also JJ, Winged C. Electro Harmonix.

These are all good tubes to me


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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:15 am
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Yes I think the next steps in my "tone quest" will be some books to read, and also some different tubes to try out. I guess experimenting around will be half the fun.

Thanks for your replies!

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:23 am
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Go to tubestore.com

They sell tubes and they explain what king of tone you can have with different brand


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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:23 am
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Groove Tubes have pretty much been overpriced hype since their inception. They are pretty much a tube sorting/rating house. My understanding is they used to manufacture tubes for a short time but gave it up.
My original tubes in my HRDlx out of the box were GT branded Sovtek 5881's and they failed very quickly which was fine because they sounded awful anyway. Total icepick in the forehead. I replaced them all with JJ's, problem solved. My Egnater came with GT branded JJ's. So far they sound great. The preamp tubes are Sovtek but I replaced V1 with NOS JAN Phillips 5751 to drop the gain a little. Sounds great.

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:37 am
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There's little difference at all in any aspect. It all comes down to guitarists perpetuating a myth that leads us to paying higher prices.

Theres only a handfull of factories making guitar amp valves. All people like groove tubes do is take in a truckload from some chinese factory and pair/quad them up, then give em a rating.

JJ do make their own tubes, I dont hear any difference between them and anyone elses, including vintage Brimar, Mullard and Siemens valves that I have knocking around.

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:34 am
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I don't know. But I do know that a tubes change from GT's to JJ's made a world of difference in my HRDlx. Didn't make it any more reliable, but they did change the tone from harsh to a lot warmer even before I messed with the bias. Some tubes are definitely more reliable than others. My older amps have RCA among other tubes that are 20 and one even 30 years old when I couldn't even get a few months from GT's.

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:42 am
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The funny thing about groovetubes I find is that the GT part of the valve code means glass tube, as opposed to metal tube that they used to be made of.
You always get bad valves out of everyone. I thought harshness and HR series amps went hand in hand.

Heres a brief summary of a wiki page containing a list of manufacturers. Here
Quote:
CHINA
Shuguang Electron Group Co. Primarily audio tubes, also some rare transmitting models (211, 805, 807, 813, 845 and 6146B). Tubes marketed by Shuguang, Valve Art, TAD, Sophia Electric, Ruby Tubes and
Taylor Tubes brand names.

Tianjin Quanerzhen Electron Tube Technology Co.
Very small manufacturer of high-end audio tubes.

Products marketed by Full Music brand.
Nanjing Sanle Electronics Co. Transmitting and industrial tubes.
Some models (3-500ZG & 4-400C) marketed by Taylor Tubes brand.

JiangXi Jingguang Electronics Co. Ceramic transmitting tubes, some of them marketed by Penta Laboratories.

Huaguang Electric Power & Electronics Co. Transmitting and industrial tubes, also Chinese made 833C.

RUSSIA
ZAO Ekspopul - New Sensor Inc. Audio tube factory of New Sensor Inc.; Tubes are marketed as Sovtek, Electro Harmonix, Tung-Sol, Mullard, Genalex Gold Lion and also Svetlana S-marked in USA.
Known formerly as tube factory of JSC Reflektor.

LLC "Ryazan" Vacuum Components Russian made SV811 and SV572 series tubes for audio applications and transmitting tubes like 811A, 572B and GU-81, marketed in western countries by Svetlana, Sovtek and Ryazan brands"
SED-SPb" Svetlana Electron Devices, St.Petersburg - JSC Svetlana Svetlana transmitting and "Winged-C" audio tubes

JSC "Voskhod" KRLZ Tubes for small signal RF and audio applications

HC JSC NEVZ-Soyuz Ceramic transmitting and microwave tubes, known as Novosibirsk Electro-Vacuum Plant - Soyuz

USA
Western Electric Inc. 300B triodes
Communications & Power Industries Inc. Eimac and rebuilt Econco high power transmitting tubes

Burle Industries Inc. Industrial and transmitting tubes, formerly factory of RCA

MPD Components Inc. Planar triodes and magnetrons, formerly Ken-Rad and later GE tube factory

MU Incorporated Contract manufacturer of obsolete electron tube models for special purposes.

LND Inc. Geiger-Mueller tubes


UK
e2v Technologies Ltd. Transmitting tubes, formerly known as English Electric Valve Co. Ltd.

Centronic Ltd. Geiger-Mueller tubes, formerly Philips GM-tubes

TMD Technologies Ltd. Magnetrons, Klystrons, Travelling Wave Tubes, Transmitters (formerly THORN Microwave Devices Ltd.)

GERMANY
Vacutec GmbH. Geiger-Mueller tubes

FRANCE
Covimag Transmitting tubes. Products marketed by Richardson Electronics with Amperex brand name.Formerly Philips transmitting tube factory.

Thales Electron Devices High power transmitting tubes. Formerly known as Thomson-CSF

CZECH REPUBLIC
Emission Labs High-end audio tubes

KR Audio Electronics s.r.o. High-end audio tubes

Tesla Electrontubes s.r.o. Transmitting tubes

SLOVAKIA
JJ-Electronic Primarily for audio applications, factory was formerly part of Tesla Electrontubes

Euro Audio Team Very small manufacturer of high-end audio tubes, products marketed by EAT brand

POLAND
Thales Lamina Przyrzady Elektronowe Sp.Z.o.o Microwave tubes for radiolocation equipment, microwave tubes for industrial applications.




See theres not actually that many people making valves for guitar amps. Theres more than I expected, I take all the tubes for audio to be for musical amps. Though you could easily write 35% of that off as valves for audiophile stereo's. Nowhere do you see the label GrooveTubes, Marshall, MesaBoogie. Even JJ that claim to be Canadian are actualy Slovakian, which I did find really suprising.

Makes me ask the question, where do them GT's come from. It could be any of the above. Their just rebranded when their measured and matched the same as mesa and marshall do.

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:10 pm
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My GTs are 5881 wxt sovteks. I read someone had JJ GTs. The GT GE's are supposedly made in the USA. They state in their material that they make some, measure some, rebrand some.


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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:17 pm
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Thanks for that list, NN. Somebody recently gave me a NIB pair of EH 6L6GTs that I stuck into a '67 Bandmaster -- they actually sounded pretty good after a bias adjustment, very similar to blackplate NOS RCA's. I always wondered who was actually making that brand.

Arjay


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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:40 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
Thanks for that list, NN. Somebody recently gave me a NIB pair of EH 6L6GTs that I stuck into a '67 Bandmaster -- they actually sounded pretty good after a bias adjustment, very similar to blackplate NOS RCA's. I always wondered who was actually making that brand.

Arjay




I suppose (not fact) it's just like the Chinese guitar factories, or better still the 70's Japanese guitar factories. One day they make Ibanez, next day the same machines are doing Tokai, day after its Yamaha.

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:54 pm
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Thanks Nik, the manufacturing list is a great update. The Wiki article is full of great info. Art

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:31 pm
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What gets me about valves is the cost. You used to be able to go to Czechoslovakia (when it existed) and buy a (big) sackfull from the factory for £50. You'd get a couple of hundred ecc8's for that. Of Course their completely unsorted and unrated. You'd get 81's,82's and 83's aswell as ez valves and other useless stuff. A friend and I did it in 92, it took us two years to sort through the valves. All we did was bung em in a plexi and play it.

Now think about people selling mullard ecc83's for £15 each. Inflation isnt that bad. JJ's for instance sell for £8/9 each here. I'm not saying their bad or anything like that, I like em, I've got six of em sat in my kitchen. The factory is proabably the same one I went to all them years ago(before the dissolution of Czechoslovakia). We've all caused a big markup on price for ourselves by prefering one lot over another when their made on the same machine. (yes I know thats not the case with JJ's). This news gets back to the distributors who think ka'ching.

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