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Post subject: Tube amp volume?
Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:11 pm
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Is a 15 watt tube amp going to be louder than a solid state of the same wattage? I have a GDEC Jr, 15 watts and am thinking of getting either the fm 65r or superchamp xd. From what i've read on all the forums it sounds like I can't go wrong with the SCXD but I just want to make sure I'll have enough volume to be heard with/over my drummer son. I questioned the 65r on the forum a few days ago and everyone that responed seemed to think it was OK. Ditto Musicians Friend reviews. I just about have my wife talked into the SCXD since it has come down to $299, gotta have her blessing if you know what I mean!?


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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:33 pm
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My 15 watt GDec wasn't even as loud as my 1974 6 watt Champ. My 30 watt GDec can't get anywhere near as loud as my 20 watt Egnater Rebel.


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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:06 pm
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truthfully, watts are watts. the whole tube volume vs solid state volume discussion is everywhere.

from what i've read on the subject, tubes will only be PERCEIVED as louder. in essence, they're not physically louder. tubes contribute a rich harmonic complexity in the signal that solid state does not, and what this does in simplest terms is give the signal a fuller body. it's more robust with a healthy dose of midrange. just enough to make the sound really come out at you. even different tubes will have differing effects in this manner.

but yea, really all it is is delivery and projection. as a gigging musician, a tube amp can be a good investment.

look at it this way, if a watt was a dollar (or yen, euro, etc.), you'd be getting more for your money with tube signal compared to solid state signal.


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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:29 pm
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I've gigged with tube amps for 30+ years and wouldn't have it any other way.


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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:14 am
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Rule of thumb (perceived or actual) is a 2:1 ratio at the least, where a 6 watt tube amp will be as loud (or louder) than a 12 watt SS amp. Your mileage may vary.

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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:23 am
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It comes down to the way that a tube amp breaks up, or RMS power. The wattage we see listed is RMS power. The amount of power a amp can deliver before it breaks up/distorts. The problem is that with SS power amps, once they break up, they do so suddenly, abruptly and harshly. Tube amps break up gradually and produce overtones that are pleasing as they break up. Therefore, a SS power amp is useless past its listed RMS power. A tube amp for guitar is still very usefull past its rated RMS power, even disirable, therefore they have more usefull overall wattage than a SS power amp.

The additional loudness you hear from a tube amp is real. Perception of loudness can be found in the highs and mid range, and is known as cutting through the mix. Projection is the way the sound is delivered, and a closed back cab will have more projection than an open back cab, since sounds cannot leak as easily out the back of a closed back cab. I walk away from my Marshall cab, and it sounds as loud across the room as it does right standing next to it up to a certain point. I think the perception of loudness has to do with the natural frequency range of tube amps to only a small extent. I think tubes have nothing to do with projection. Tube amps are louder and its real.

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Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:25 pm
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I always understood it to be down to tube compression giving a more constant signal.

I read some years back where Cliff Cooper of orange amps, was at his witts end. His first 100watters though measuring around 110 watts output just did not sound as loud as the marshall plexi. Despite the fact that the plexi only measured 74watts total peak output.

He took his dilemma off to Cambridge university. After a couple of weeks of tests the boffins concluded that the perceived volume difference was all down to the gain. The Marshall distorting more and earlier led to it sounding louder. The Orange 100 hardly distorted even at max. They surmised with the hypothesis that the human brain perceives distortion as pain on the ear, so focus's more on it.

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Post subject: Re: Tube amp volume?
Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:06 pm
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Pineknot14 wrote:
Is a 15 watt tube amp going to be louder than a solid state of the same wattage? I have a GDEC Jr, 15 watts and am thinking of getting either the fm 65r or superchamp xd. From what i've read on all the forums it sounds like I can't go wrong with the SCXD but I just want to make sure I'll have enough volume to be heard with/over my drummer son. I questioned the 65r on the forum a few days ago and everyone that responed seemed to think it was OK. Ditto Musicians Friend reviews. I just about have my wife talked into the SCXD since it has come down to $299, gotta have her blessing if you know what I mean!?


I personally use a Super Champ XD. My band mates have a Marshall Solid State 30w, Silvertone 20w tube, and an Ampeg 22 watt tube. Everyone thinks my 15w SCXD is louder. What I have found was the use of a great (and very cheap) tube overdrive pedal. My Digitech Bad Monkey (GC's used gear section for $20) is by far the best overdrive pedal that can increase the volume, but keep it as clean as you like. My cousin has a Vox VT30 and my SCXD kills it. Worse comes to worse, you can alway mic the amp to a PA, like almost every guitarist out there does. GC has the SCXD for $279.

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Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:10 pm
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Pineknot14, all anyone can do is give you their opinion and here is mine...

My Fender 60 watt Hot Rod DeVille 410 is three times louder than my old Marshall 100 Watt Valvestate half stack, as well as some of my other past amps including a Crate 100 watt 212 SS combo amp, and a similar version of a Peavey SS 100 watt.

Presence this, projection that, these guys breaking it down know more than me about what makes an amp an amp, but I'll answer bluntly. Whatever it is....YES, tube amps are much louder than a solid state. No doubt about it. Much, much louder.

Go to a music store with sound-proof rooms, get two amps and crank them. Decide for yourself. :D


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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:25 pm
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:04 pm
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There is a major difference between SS and tube watt ratings.

I used to have a Crate 120 watt SS and compared to my Blues Deluxe Reissue along with its extension cab (40 watt- tube), the 40 tube watts seemed slightly louder. I owned them both at the same time, so I wasn't relying on memory.

My Blues jr. (15 tube watts) has just slightly less volume than my Princeton 650 (65 SS watts).

Quote:
nedorama Posted: 27 Jan 2010 12:14 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rule of thumb (perceived or actual) is a 2:1 ratio at the least, where a 6 watt tube amp will be as loud (or louder) than a 12 watt SS amp. Your mileage may vary.
.


I wouldn't argue, since it is a 'rule of thumb', but I always considered it to be more like 2-1/2 to 3 X. i.e. a 40 watt tube approximates a 100 to 120 watt SS. In any event, tube watts are significantly louder!

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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:00 am
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Like I said, my 6 watt 74 Champ blows my GDec 30 out the door and the Champ is an open cabinet, the GDec is closed. I go by my ears, not "the rule of thumb." My 20 watt Egnater has no problem hanging with 50 or even 100 watt ss half stacks. I do have to push the gain for the 100 watters though. Go figure.


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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:07 am
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Yes. It will. I have a Blues Junior, and just out of sheer curiosity, I put it next to my Marshall mini stack. Both are 15-watt amps. The junior has a 12, and the Marshall has two 10's in separate sealed cabs. There was no comparison whatsoever, the junior was just louder. I even had my nephew bring over the 75-watt Line 6 he got for Christmas, and while it was louder, the perceived difference was nowhere near what you'd expect from the wattage difference. It's probably mostly a matter of perception, as others have said. I know part of my conversion to Fender amps was due to having an 85-watt Twin Reverb completely drown out my 100-watt Plexi full stack, and sound sweet doing it, lol.

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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:38 am
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I have a 22 watt DRRI, and it is just as loud as the 120 watt SS Crate 2x12 combo I had before. And, although unrelated, I never could get the tone I wanted from that amp. I plug in the DRRI and instantly, there it is. But, back to the point. In my Dodge Dakota, I have an awesome sound system. I've replaced the door speakers, front and rear with Boston Acoustics top of the line component speakers, crossovers mounted inside the doors. And 2 Boston GT 10" subwoofers in small sealed enclosures behind my rear seats. I have Pioneer's flagship headunit and a 75 watts x 4 channel Pioneer amp for the component speakers and a 300 watts x 2 channel Pioneer Premier amp for the subs. The sound quality of this stereo system is unsurpassed. I've yet to hear another car stereo system that can match it in terms of sound quality. Albeit it's not gonna win any SPL competitions, it wasn't designed for that. I don't want to rattle my windows(or the car next to me, I hate that!) I've actually installed Fatmat sound-proofing material throughout my entire truck. Anyways, with all this power, 300 watts for my woofers and tweeters, and 600 watts for my subwoofers, my 22 watt, all-tube guitar amp will blow away the entire car stereo system for loudness! Now, I know that my car amps run off of only 12 volts, but voltage x amperage=wattage right? I still don't get the difference in volume. Once I asked the owner of the company I worked for and he thought it had to do with duty factors. Of course, he deals with welding machines, lasers, punches, brake presses, lathes, mills, etc. On a side note, he told me that lasers used to cut steel use vacuum tubes. They attempted to use SS technology at one time, but reverted back to tubes.

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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:08 am
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Get your BS meters out... this noob is going to try and max them for you here. :wink:

I have never seen it brought up, doesn't mean it wasn't in the past, but there was a phenomena that I had noticed as a high end computer user when I was still a working man.

When we were in a room full of fluorescent tube lighting, there was a noticeable and significant screen flicker when using the old CRT monitors. Why? Easy. The tubes cycled at 60Hz just like the alternating current that was powering them. The monitors refreshed at about 70-75Hz. Hence, flicker. If you wanted to avoid that, you simply used an incandescent light that maintained a steadily glowing filament.

And so I think it probably goes with tubes vs. SS. The SS does not have that sustained "glow" that a hot tube would have. It is constantly turning itself on and off because of the cyclic nature of the current it gets.

There is so much more to factor in before it all comes down to how the coil in the speaker cycles... I don't know how it all fits but it just makes me think that steadily "on" beats "on and off".

Just my 2¢, but remember, you get what you pay for. 8)


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