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Post subject: human hearing, amps, and amp choices.
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:17 pm
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it turns out that human hearing has the widest dynamic range (your ability to hear the quietest sound to the point of ear of ear damage - or compression) and the widest frequency range from the lowest to the highest note peaks at about 18 years of age. after 18, it's generally downhill. the "downhill" will depend on inner ear damage (disease, constant exposure to loud, etc...). funny when you think about that. many older guys making recommendations based on possible hearing damage, certainly hearing degradation, the younger not having the experience to understand what they hearing (hearing well beyond what the older guys are recommending).

it also turns out that audiophiles, the most critical in the world cannot perceive regenerated sound under lab conditions in an anechoic chamber, digitization beyond 192kHz and 24 bit sampling - this is the upper limit, after this, its money wasted technically, maybe not marketing. most human hearing, the most sensitive tops out at about 22kHz - this an exceptional upper limit, almost animal like. for most of us, it's more like 16kHz, assuming you are 18 years old with no ear damage.

it turns out that the next dimension for human hearing (or sound reproduction) is multiple sound sources for the ultimate in sound reproduction. as it turns out, human hearing is very, very complex and can discern minute phase variations from multiple sources. this has to do with evolution, and that as we got in and out of the plains (where various animals could eat us), we had develop an acute sense of directionality and perception from reflected sound. in general, we find sound from multiple source much more pleasurable than a "perfect" single source, even if those source were not quite as good as the single source. try this yourself, toggle between stereo and mono and see what happens - source material being identical. it appeals to our primordial instincts (and stimualtion thereof). ever wonder why "speakers" are such a guy thing? ever wonder how to "sell" speakers to a wife/girlfriend - just put on a female talk show - it will sell itself. why? - women took care of the kids and talked a lot while the men hunted (or got hunted) - this stuff is coded in our genes. please don't shoot me for saying this - try the experiment and see what happens.

what does that have to with amps? plenty. many here have recommend all sorts of amps, typically tube, and "tone". most guitar amps do not stand a chance of exercising the complete human range. recently i have been experimenting with things digital and using a denon 4810 avr with a 9.3 speaker setup. i have created an audio dvd using several cybertwins (the spdif outputs are great for this) and played the composition back on the denon (used a denon blu ray player, hdmi out to the avr). was totally blown away by the sound experience. i had been playing with 3 cybers, but to have a 9.3 system was like being bathed in sound and tone.

so here is what i am saying, i think the next dimension in sound is multi-speaker or multiamp setups surrounding an audience, kind of like the denon system i used. it's an amazing sound you have to hear to believe. for your own sake, try auditioning a denon avr 4810 setup with 9.3, try stereo (disconnect all except the front right and front left, this is software selectable with the denon), then try 9.3 - you'll hear what i mean. you can even have sound rotate in there room if you want (you will have to master the audio dvd for that).

i have found the cyber twins very amenable to digital control. i think you will need digital control to do somethig like this and probably "digital" amps like the SE. something to think about.

ciao from the brave new digital world,
johnny.


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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:40 am
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Want the ultimate in surround? Try IMAX.


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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:45 am
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Strange post, has nothing to do with modern Guitar Amps at all.
So now you are trying to flog Denon AV amps ? :D

For our surround we prefer Bryston, at least I know they are made locally.

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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:40 pm
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Well, im unsure of the advantage of surround sound when your doing music.

I thought Stereo was good enough if you had the option to do it...

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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:36 pm
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That was a fun read. Entertaining and educational. :?

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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:04 pm
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I doubt you would notice a difference in some of the dives I play.Maybe if I ever get a chance to play at Madison Square Garden I will keep it under consideration. :roll:


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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:20 pm
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eh, i can't hear what you typed........... i love useless knowledge. god bless you man.


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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:36 pm
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guys & gals,

i want this to be a fun post. i experimented with what was available and had some fun. i really did notice the effect of multi-speakers. curious if you guys did any such fun experiments too...

the denon 4810ci is pretty cool, it is made in japan. here's a bit of history from denon's site:
In 1910, Nippon Columbia Co., Ltd. (originating from “Nippon Chikuonki Shokai” – Japan Recorders Corporation) was established by Frederick Whitney Horn. Horn was a U.S.-born trader engaged in importing machine tools and recorders in Yokohama since 1896. In an attempt to commercialize records and recorders, he initiated the "Japan-U.S. Recorders Manufacturing" in 1907 and constructed a special-purpose factory to begin the manufacturing of recorders. These recorders, equipped with a wine glass-shaped speaker commenced the sales of single-side disc records and gramophone players.
In 1912, the Nippon Columbia merged with Japan-U.S. Recorders Manufacturing, thus launching the double-side management of "software and hardware", an integration of manufacturing and sales.
today, the parent company remains Nippon Columbia.

Bryston, located in Peterborough Ontario Canada. Great company. Very cool products. Some of the best SS equipment on the market. no tube stuff. did not find any avr like the denon.

when i did my experiments, the speakers were Paradigms (Paradigm is located in Mississauga Ontario Canada), the monitor 11 v6 series fronts, the big 390 center, the "DSP 3400 sub", and a bunch of the 390 surrounds. amazing/great sound. it seems that paradigm has a sister company called anthem - i don't know them, but they seem to make a pretty cool avr.

this is not a canuck invasion...
more useless knowledge: americans invaded what was "canada" in 1775 to make what was canada (Canada wasn't really canada until 1867 when it became a country) a part of the US. oddly enough, the canucks beat off the americans. can you imagine a state the size of Canada???

this might be useless knowledge, but look at the trend lads and lassies, solid state, digital signal processing, aural/sonic processing with multi-speaker setups, and network ready. and now think about "modern" guitar amps...

ciao,
johnny.


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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:05 am
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Johnny, interesting stuff. Way too complex for myself and a lot of people here. It's funny, it seems you get outnumbered by the analog/tube guys. I like digital and electronic stuff, just not when it comes to my personal guitar tone. I did see an article once when someone made a pickup that wired each string individually and sent it through some 6 channel amp and speaker system that was kind of a surround thing. I still may have the article somewhere.


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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:25 am
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Very interesting stuff!!

CC

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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:36 am
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63supro wrote:
I did see an article once when someone made a pickup that wired each string individually and sent it through some 6 channel amp and speaker system that was kind of a surround thing. I still may have the article somewhere.


I remember as well something similar - the Ripley guitar. Eddie Van Halen used it on their song "Top Jimmy"
http://www.vintagekramer.com/ripley.htm

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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:42 pm
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I've gone back to plugging my laptop/guitar amp modelling software into my receiver/system, 7.1 receiver set up as 5.2, instead of my little frontman. The frontman connection had a very bad ground loop that I just couldn't get ride of, drove me to distraction.

My avr system probably gets a lot more out of the amp modelling software. The avr system is of course in a different league in reproducing sounds than the frontman. And the software is actually stereo, of course the frontman isn't. I can run the receiver in many ways, simulated surround, stereo, with or without the base bins, only the base bins.

Lots of fun, living room stuff only. But the models I run the most is a 57 tweed with a tube distortion, nothing else. The chorus, flanger, reverbs, room dynamics sounds good in stereo, and surround but I don't use them much, for now.

But I've only been learning for a year, gotta stop twiddling with my knobs and buttons and stick to practicing.


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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:04 pm
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inbalance99

What modelling software are you using ?

I guess you are doing this ?
Guitar plugged into the sound card input, or did you buy a piece of hardware especially for this?
modelling software then does it's thing
Output of sound card (or your hardware device) into the tape, or cd input on the receiver ?
Something like that ?


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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:40 pm
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Hey Johnny," Keep on Truckin' " You're on a mission down that music highway. But try not to put the old players out to pasture yet. At 60 yrs old, I have found that my ability to discern note patterns and scale structures by ear has increased in the last five years. Maybe I can't hear all the depth and demension of each tone, but man there is something that the years of playing and listening must impart to our brains. Maybe it's just a form of osmosis. Maybe it's just that some of us listen harder then others. Art

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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:08 pm
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neodrama - ooh what a sweet looking bandmaster! I'd freakin love one of them.
ah, but back to the topic...

Johnny - true, there's a lot in what you say, aspects of surround sound and phase relations do really tickle the human ear, sure. But there's also a lot of evidence of cross-cultural human preferences for certain spectrums of the frequency range, and even common preferences for certain harmonics over the fundamental of a note. There's a lot of research which points to humans not enjoying frequencies at the very high and low ends of our hearing ability - in fact ultra low and ultra high frequencies have been used as irritants or even soft weapons for years. Our hearing is most sensitive around the vocal clarity frequencies in the mid range around 1 - 4 Khz, and surprise surprise that is the kind of frequencies we like to be prominent in our guitar sounds generally. As animals we have a preference for sounds within the range of human speech, and there are obvious evolutionary reasons for that. I would suggest that the reason so many of us like the sounds of tube amps is directly related to the kind of frequency range they reproduce best, and the kind of harmonic content they generate also.

To add something else - dude, many of us have been happily playing through two or more amps or speaker cabs for decades, enjoying the spread of sound, the slightly different sound of diff cabs and amps, the three dimensional sound, all the air being pushed around us. This is nothing new. Why do you think so many guitarists who have excellent PA systems still like to play through several amps, or a bunch of cabs? Same thing. You don't need high quality digital amps and hi-fi speakers to get a fantastic surround sound guitar experience. Start collecting great sounding amps, then play through three or four at once - you will think you died and went to heaven! Seriously. :)

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