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Post subject: fender/mesa boogie
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:13 am
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i just exchanged my supersonic for a lonestar mesa boogie and was wondering if any of you guys know anything about mesa and if it can dial in the same beautiful clean tone as a fender (exchanged because it sounded brighter and clean in the store and the supersonic was a little noisy). Anyone know about mesa's too? thanks guys


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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:50 pm
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Hey!

Mesa amps tend to be VERY bassy, so what they do is pair them with a trebly speaker to balance it out.

Unfortunatly your going to struggle to get that, "Fender" sound. Try putting the switch at the LEAST thickest setting, Put it on "Tweed" mode, Bass at 11o'clock, middle on FULL and treble on about two O'Clock and put presence where ever you feel happy.

That should get you a jangly tone but its as close as your gonna get im afraid.

Mind you, thats the settings ive tryed on a mesa single rectifier Recto-verb, I could be very wrong since ive never tryed a lonestar.

However im sure if you have a strat or a tele you should be quite close

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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:11 pm
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Mesa also does some interesting things are far as how the EQ knobs actually work, so refer to the manual for yours and spend some time with it and your favorite guitar.

I've played this model, and it does really well with a clean tone, but it will sound different than Fenders.

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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:03 pm
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Yeah I have a lonestar head and I'd have to say it gets close to Fender clean - but not close enough. I'm kinda disappointed with it now and plan to sell it. I've been searching a while for the right amp to run in stereo with my Fender Vibroverb, but everything sounds crappy next to the VV - it's that good!

The Lonestar is the closest Mesa come to a vintage style Fender amp, but I got to say after wrestling with it for ages, and doing a couple of popular mods (check out the Reeder Mod in forums if you want your drive channel to open up and sound less muddy and compressed) it still doesn't cut it. The Mesa sound is a high gain, smooth mids, saturated and compressed tone... and that's either what you want or it aint. It seems with the Lonestar they went for a lower gain, more vintage vibe, but it still has that dark, bassy, compressed feel that's typically Mesa. Not the sound I was looking for, I thought it would be sooooo versatile given all the freakin dials on the front! But it turns out Mesa is Mesa is Mesa. I'll sell it and get another Fender I think....


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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:56 pm
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Don't know if it will work but try this:
http://www.singlecoil.com/docs/magic-six.pdf
Good luck.

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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:07 am
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nickbeatnik wrote:
Not the sound I was looking for, I thought it would be sooooo versatile given all the freakin dials on the front! But it turns out Mesa is Mesa is Mesa. I'll sell it and get another Fender I think....


Oh no! you dont have to sell it! if anything, an amp you run in stereo with another amp you want it to sound different so you get a whole number of textures!

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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:12 am
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True true bigcat, that was the whole idea.
But I want the other amp to convince me on it's own terms, with it's own complimentary sound.... and the Boogie doesn't get there, it's like a not-good-enough blackface Fender clean, and the overdrive is way too muddy and compressed for my music so I can't even use it.

Right now I'm using a '68 or '69 Australian made 5 watt valve trem combo as amp number two, and I like that little cheap practise amp heaps better than the Mesa. It brings something different to my Vibroverb and makes it all 3D on my $@!!

When I say I might get another Fender, it would be a different sounding one, like a tweed or such. Sometimes I store my friend's '59 RI Bassman for a few days in between gigs (I have the van 8) ) and THAT puppy sounds very sweet and wiiiiiiide with the Vibro. Truly cool.

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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:51 am
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nickbeatnik wrote:
True true bigcat, that was the whole idea.
But I want the other amp to convince me on it's own terms, with it's own complimentary sound.... and the Boogie doesn't get there, it's like a not-good-enough blackface Fender clean, and the overdrive is way too muddy and compressed for my music so I can't even use it.

Right now I'm using a '68 or '69 Australian made 5 watt valve trem combo as amp number two, and I like that little cheap practise amp heaps better than the Mesa. It brings something different to my Vibroverb and makes it all 3D on my $@!!

When I say I might get another Fender, it would be a different sounding one, like a tweed or such. Sometimes I store my friend's '59 RI Bassman for a few days in between gigs (I have the van 8) ) and THAT puppy sounds very sweet and wiiiiiiide with the Vibro. Truly cool.


Ah, i see what you mean. When i tryed a mesa dual Recto i found it muddy as hell and nowhere near the crisp sound i wanted.

And yeah a bassman should widen your sound since it was made for bass frequencies. That seems like a good idea to me.

Oh and on more thing, My name is BIG the cat, as in my name is Big and im a cat. Big is not a verb in this instance....

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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:07 pm
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You got it Big. I have a habit of shortening names... it's an Aussie thing. :)

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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:22 am
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Mesas are definitely a different animal than Fenders. They are much more transparent to tube changes. Luckily you have a Lonestar which is a lot easier to shape tone with than more complicated Mesas and their tube functions.

Mesa is notorious for splitting functions with the triodes and in some amps it can be a real mess. The way a Lonestar is set up, it can be as easy as shaping my HRDV. The tube functions of the FX loop and Reverb run off of the same tube, in some Mesas those tubes are split with gain stages, and shaping tones can be a real headache.

If you're using modern tubes in the preamp, your Mesa is always going to sound like a bassy, muddy, mushy, mess. My biggest advice would be to ditch them for NOS or UOS tubes.

The best results you'll find for V3 and V4 in my experiences with Mesa amps (FX and REV) would be to score some GE 6201/12at7WA triple mica tubes or GE 12at7WC. They're pretty inexpensive. I used to be able to find them for around $5- $10 a piece, sometimes less. By using 12at7s in those slots, you'll curb more of the mesa tones that bleed into those functions in favor of more of clearer sounding effects.

V1-V2-and V5 are your gain stages much like a HRDV. What you want to do is make sure you put a 12ax7 that's known for having good highs in V1 to tame the muddiness and bass tones.

You always want to look at a mesas preamp shaping like this:

V1- treble
V2-mid
V3-Bass

However, in this case, only 2 tubes are used for gain stages (V3 is your FX loop driver). So you kind of have to know how much Bass you want to be present. For Lonestars, I'm a believer in leaving long-plate tubes out of the gain stages. you'll still have plenty of Bass around being that it's a Mesa.

For V1 and V2 probably your best bet will be to go with non US made NOS tubes.

V1- Amperex, Valvo, Siemens, short-plate tubes have great highs and the Siemens in particular are as clean as 12ax7s have ever been made. The only cleaner tubes I've ever heard were extremely high dollar.

V2- I always recommend a Mullard ecc83 short-plate. They have a midrange that is very good, and will add a smooth creaminess to the mix. Although, you could also go with any of the above mentioned as well, and sometimes a good Matsushita 12ax7 can have the same effect, but they can be hit or miss with harshness.

Now what you have is suppressed bass, clarity, more highs and mids. Throw a long-plate in V2 and watch the Bass come jumping right back out of it.

V5 (PI) is where you can shape the overall tone of what you have in your gain stages. A good happy medium would be something like a Sylvania or Tung Sol(NOS) short-plate 12ax7. They are clean and clear, and can keep everything where they stand as it is. Mullards are another good choice if you want to further enhance the highs and midrange without being harsh. Using a 12at7 in the PI will further suppress the high-gain aspect and allow notes to be more individual.

There's obviously more in-depth ways to shape the tone, this is just a quick run-down of what I've already experimented and experienced with Lonestars and Mesas in general.

That's the perils of what you jump into when buying a Mesa. It's up to you to shape the tone. Throw in a bunch of modern tubes that are all the same, and the amp will only frustrate you. Unfortunately, your biggest recourse is to put in expensive NOS preamp tubes to get what you expect out of it. And in their FX loops and reverb drivers, I've always found 12ax7s to be a bit overbearing and opt for a 12at7. Also, another recommendation of mine is to not use 7025s in Mesas if you want to curb Bass tones. They can in a lot of cases sound bland, mushy, and uninspiring. Only for a Classic Rock sound have I ever recommended a 7025 Sylvania in V1 and no other brand. They are the only 7025s worth mentioning for Mesas if you want to keep it clean. And they are long-plates.

Once you've shaped the preamp like this, it almost doesn't matter what you use for power tubes. mesa stock, JJs from Eurotubes, Winged C, all good choices.

Anyway, I hope this helps you understand your Mesa more. I've dealt with a LOT of them over the past few years, and believe it or not, ended up with quite a few happy owners once they decided to try the NOS preamp tube rout.

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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:26 pm
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Shredd6 wrote:
Mesas are definitely a different animal than Fenders. They are much more transparent to tube changes. Luckily you have a Lonestar which is a lot easier to shape tone with than more complicated Mesas and their tube functions.

Mesa is notorious for splitting functions with the triodes and in some amps it can be a real mess. The way a Lonestar is set up, it can be as easy as shaping my HRDV. The tube functions of the FX loop and Reverb run off of the same tube, in some Mesas those tubes are split with gain stages, and shaping tones can be a real headache.

If you're using modern tubes in the preamp, your Mesa is always going to sound like a bassy, muddy, mushy, mess. My biggest advice would be to ditch them for NOS or UOS tubes.


Wow, thanks Shredd6 for the excellent and full advice. I wish you were my local tube guy, a lot of those tubes are very hard to come by in Australia. But yeah, of course I've stuck every different NOS and UOS tube I have in the Lonestar to tame some of the excess mud... I've got a few different 12at7s, a sweet sounding Mullard ECC83 and a Mazda 12ax7 which is very detailed, clear and chimey. The AT7s made an excellent difference, particularly in V2. I don't use the FX loop, for FX or as a boost, and I was running the Lonestar without Rev as a dry stereo partner to my Vibroverb - which has all the Rev anybody could ever ask for :)

I also tried the handy EL34 output tube option, which tightened up the bass some. I also did the infamous 'Reeder Mod' swapping the gain and master vol pots on channel 2 - which really opens up the clarity of that channel and gives noticeably more highs and reduces the compression. Weird, I know it doesn't make sense that swapping two pots should make such a diff, but it sure does.

Anyway, after all that tinkering it's still a Mesa, made by Mesa to sound like a Mesa, and I realized that it's just not the sound I want. So I've taken all those sweet tubes out and I'll put it up for sale next week when my local store finish their holidays.
I've got your tunes playing on your web page right now and I like your band a lot! Always been in love with them Island grooves, most especially the pre-Reggae Rocksteady riddms. Sweet tunes, cool band. Keep it groovin :!:

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Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:03 am
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Thanks man. Last fall we played a show with Three Houses Down from New Zealand. Bit of a different style, but they were really good at 3-part harmonies. We had a great time. If you ever get a chance you should check them out.

Small clip from the gig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qs-MKWfbXw

If you've had a Mazda and Mullard in there and it still isn't what you're looking for, then you really have tried all you can. The Mazda in V1 and Mullard in V2 would be the way I would have tried it first anyway. If you plan on getting another tube amp, maybe you should hold on to those. The Mazda is definitely one that's worth holding on to.

I've gotta tell you that of the Mesas out there, it wasn't my favorite either. They don't have too much of a sizzle to them do they? I love Pre-2000 2-ch DRs though. It was my main amp for about 10-years. Sounds crazy given the bad press on them, but they were great with tube manipulation.

I just saw Jerry Cantrell last night. He was playing a Les Paul through a Marshall JCM800, and I could have sworn it sounded much like a Mesa sound. So I do think it's a matter of personal preference. I wouldn't consider a Lonestar useless, but like all Mesas, they need cleaning up.

It would be too expensive of a thing for me to hold onto if I wasn't happy with it, so maybe selling it for something else would probably satisfy you more. Aren't those amps about twice as expensive in AU as they are in the US??

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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:57 am
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Shredd6
Yep, the Mazda in V1 and the Mullard in V2 were the best combination... but still not for me. Like you say - not too much sizzle. That about sums it up. And yep, those little glowing beauties will be staying right here with me ready to go into the next amp, they're still both in great shape. The Mazda was a real find, I pulled it out of a British made 1960s mono reel to reel tape recorder that I bought in a garage sale for 10 bucks! Sweet. The tape machine was long dead, but some of the tubes were superb.

I spent an afternoon in the Boogie store in LA in the late 90s and found some tones I really liked, but those amps are easily double the price here. So the Lonestar was secondhand, and a bargain for this country - but it's still too much money to have sunk in an amp that doesn't make me drool!

I'll check out your clip, like I said, I like your band a lot. Cheers!

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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:03 pm
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The Lonestar Special has gotten some great reviews for clean tones, and their reverb as well. Have you tried one of those? I've been considering one for a while, but there's not a store around here close that has one in stock, and I don't want to spend $1500-1800 USD on an amp without playing it first.

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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:39 pm
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Hollis Prince wrote:
The Lonestar Special has gotten some great reviews for clean tones, and their reverb as well. Have you tried one of those? I've been considering one for a while, but there's not a store around here close that has one in stock, and I don't want to spend $1500-1800 USD on an amp without playing it first.


Hollis, yeah both Lonestar and Lonestar Special amps have a fantastic clean sound, and excellent reverb, with the added bonus of a tone switch for sparkling fender type reverb tone, or a darker more 'studio' type rev. If I didn't own a handwired blackface Fender Vibroverb I would be really impressed by the cleans and rev on both Lonestars... but I do own a Vibro and will do for the rest of my life, and neither Lonestar measures up against it. The Lonestar Special has a sweet EL84 character to it as you'd expect... but once again it lacks a bit of sparkle and zing, and I expect even more sparkle and zing from an EL84 amp. Plus the gain channel is still too compressed and too middy to my ears. To Mesa's ears it gives the singing sustained smooth mid distortion that so many guitarists want.

Bottom line - don't buy it unless you can play it first. Tone and responsiveness in an amp is subjective, personal taste... you gotta taste it first.

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