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Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:50 pm
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LesK wrote:
We should also make it perfectly clear that there is a difference between analog solid state sound & digital sound.

This is true, except we have established that solid state devices have a totally different sound when compared to vacuum tubes.

Look at our past, when everything started its shift towards solid-state amplifiers and components. It took a while, but eventually people started realizing that something was different. Something about their sound was missing. Sure, solid state is better than vacuum tubes. More reliable, sturdier, smaller, cheaper, able to be miniaturized to a tiny chip - everything points to better.

Can those tones people desire be reproduced with a computer and digital effects? Yeah, the Line 6 PODs and similar devices will do just that. Will low-cost, high quality DACs and effects processors become more mainstream? Yeah, in time. Will those high quality components eventually replace vacuum tubes and our vintage high-maintenance, high cost, heavy, one-horse show amps??? That is the premise of this thread.

My answer, after consideration, is probably. Maybe not in the immediate future. Vintage gear has a solid place in today's market. Digital effects technology is still very young. Technology improves. When applied to computers, technology tends to improve very, very rapidly.

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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:54 am
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nedorama & a.davis

Good points guys.
By the way, I'm a tube lover.
I currently have a 1st edition Cyber-Twin, it gets some good sounds but does not get great sounds. My cheap 1988 Fender Champ12 amp (10 watts RMS) has better clean sounds than my $1600.00 Cyber-twin.
My next amp will have only tubes in the signal chain - no transistors & certainly will not have digital conversion.
Any pedals I buy will not convert to digital although it may have a transistor cleanly amplifying the output of the guitar so that I can overdrive the tube pre-amp on an all tube amp - to get that natural compression you can get only from tubes.
Not much more for me to say.


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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:33 pm
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The Beatles seemed to do okay with solid state amps.


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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:46 pm
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hoiekvam wrote:
The Beatles seemed to do okay with solid state amps.
Really?I could have sworn George used Vox, Fender and Ric tube amps. :shock:


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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:55 pm
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budglo's right, Check this out. Ths Vox Super Beatle amps were total garbage and the Beatles hated them. I've read many interviews from Lennon and Harrison saying they didn't like the sound and that they had tons of reliability issues as did many solid state amps way back.

http://www.voxshowroom.com/us/amp/beat.html

The Beatles pretty much used tube amps. The Super Beatles were a marketing thing and the Beatles never endorsed them.


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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:00 am
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Just saw a short clip of the Beatles on the roof for the "Let It Be" show or whatever it was on the History Channel, and the amps.........well, they sure looked like Silver Faced Fenders to me. Just an observation. Keep plugging away Johnny. I don't think my grandson will be interested in my old amps, he will need quite a bit more. ART

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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:05 am
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Well of course. The Beatles used Fender from the beginning. Isn't that a Showman cabinet there at Shea Stadium, 1965?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mUXwnEWEnE

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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:33 pm
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Still in Seattle (near Pike's Place), going to So-Cal tomorrow morning, meet up with mates.

well, passed by Tukwila, didn't drop in to Tukwila GC. nice evergreens all around, sure is wet, but when the sun breaks through it's spectacular. just the thought that this thread could affect Napalm's plan to purchase, yeah, as if... so what did Mr. Napalm buy? a starbuck's coffee perchance? maybe at Pike's Place?

rebuttal: my CT-SE beat out my TRRI in every way. knowing how to set up the CT-SE (or CT original) is the key to getting the magic out. the problem is that it is not easy to set up the CT/CT-SE and this is the amp's greatest failing. and that's why the software got done. but enough of that.

the Fender silver faces (dual showman reverb with the 15 inch JBLs) were probably the technical peak of Fender's tube amp development. they were/are good amps, i don't believe i'm arguing that. it's great to see tube enthusiasts spring up and get vocal (reasoned arguments preferred). what i am saying is that their time has come and gone. and by gone, i mean gone. the majority of tube consumers is the guitar/bass amp market (not exactly the mass market like iphone). everyone else in the world has moved on and that is why the tube factories are far and few, and the ones that are... and as if today's tubes were like yesterday's when the technology was at its peak. well it isn't and won't be, just like crt televisions (yes, the crt tv lines were all closed in 2007).

i am arguing for digital preamps & solid state amps because the technology is available for very reasonable cost and the fact that it opens up a pc as a recording studio, and hopefully soon, a means to enter a live on-line session (by that i mean no perceptible time delay), not the dated ninjam site referenced above (it does not support real-time play sessions, btw, getting real-time on the net is not as easy as you think, and it will required a high throughput service). and to suggest that things digital are inferior, it's been my observation, inadequacy to effectiveness depends on whose hands it's in, more on that below. things digital are alot like stratocasters: one mistake and you notice it. crunchy distortion and buckers, it's difficult to tell mistakes from precision playing.

anyways, appreciate healthy tech discussions, agree with 24-bits A/D, agree with 96Kbps at front and back end, the achille's heel is always finding a good A/D at a reasonable cost, most dsp chips have the processing power (the texas TMS family is one my favs) to make all sorts of magic happen (doesn't that sound better than algorithms), and to get the sound out, the D/As have to be quite good too. high perf/high power linear amps are well established. speaker technology has also evolved quite a bit, our amps (tube or digital/ss) could stand to have better speakers in them as well.

the one thing that needs to be focused on is "human factors". all the wonders contained in the digital magic have to be easily accessible (usually with a simple USB plug'n'play and a good and well-thought out pc software control panel). this is the greatest failing of things digital: designed by engineers for engineers, not for the average person who doesn't know about MIDI, etc..., and does not wish to become a designer.

one other thing: running a software shop can be a nightmare. i'm sure fender ventured into this territory and got creamed with cost and schedule over-run (and cut their losses as expediently as possible). Nevertheless, a well-deserved thank you for having the guts to venture forth and Innovate. just note: there are ways to do software, if two guys can deliver a bug free software like cyber commander (>25k lines of code), then you know it can be done. the trick is how.

ciao,
johnny.


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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:56 pm
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Vibrating strings are just so old fashioned, let's do it all on computers!

I have a solid state, I expect it will end up in the garbage eventually as improvements in solid state make newer ones better and cheaper (Moore's law, sort of).

I will invest in a good tube amp shortly, I expect it will be worth as much as I paid for it or more in twenty years time.


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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:35 pm
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i mess with computers most of the day. the last thing i want is to play my guitar with one. now, i know some guys love to record wth them, so do i. it is deffinitly the best way to record. you can realy get some great sounds running through them. i just feel that i can not get the tone or the touch that a tube amp can deliver. again, when a s.s. amp can truly act and sound like a tube amp i will change my mind about them. but i'm just set in my ways.


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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:22 pm
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Technology may one day model every aspect of every classic tube amp down to 99.9999% accuracy, but it will never be a tube amp. Sounds generated by modeling software will never be truly real, just a very good reenactment, it is the only reason why modeling will never make tubes extinct. Plus the fact it would be boring as hell if when to set up for a gig, all you see is every musician unpacking their laptops, virtual guitar and bass and electronic drum kit and plug into the PA.

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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:33 pm
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Hey Blackstrat, you mentioned recording. I'm an old picker and amp tech, (first band '64)but a newbie with the computer(one year).It's off topic, but what does it take to record? Is there a forum that could help me learn the basics to use this Dell for recording? Thanks ART

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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:24 pm
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aclempoppi wrote:
Hey Blackstrat, you mentioned recording. I'm an old picker and amp tech, (first band '64)but a newbie with the computer(one year).It's off topic, but what does it take to record? Is there a forum that could help me learn the basics to use this Dell for recording? Thanks ART
Some good reading Art. Hope this helps...... 8) Mike http://www.guitarnoise.com/lesson/home- ... g-on-a-pc/

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Last edited by cherokee747 on Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:25 pm
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Entering isolation from thread mode wrote:
MySelf wrote:
Rather lengthy thread on home recording running here
http://fender.com/community/forums/view ... sc&start=0

Basically all you need is an interface and a program like Reaper to get going


aclempoppi wrote:
It's off topic, but what does it take to record? Is there a forum that could help me learn the basics to use this Dell for recording? Thanks ART


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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:18 pm
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johnny stecchino wrote:
words about digital being good

You made some good points, and for the most part I agree. Digital modeling through solid state amps will soon be a sound to be reckoned with. There is something about the mojo you get playing old school, though.

Where I would like to see things heading is instead of trying to emulate a tube amp, let them branch out on their own and create their own tones. A tube amp never tries to sound like a solid state amp, why vice versa? Come up with original compelling tones with digital and solid state, and people will like it. Bring something new to the table that you can only do with digital effects and tone shaping. Make something totally innovative.

I'm envisioning a computerized tone processor that makes our guitars sound warm, fat, glossy, almost transparent, uniquely futuristic, and unmistakably new.

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