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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:32 pm
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I am not a knob turner either.I used to have a multieffect pedal and got rid of it for the same reason.I have single effects pedals and that works for me.


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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:44 pm
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Ok, guys, Johnny is no Troll, he is a good bloke so...to give you my response...I have both SS and Tube...I play both for different applications. I love how my SS amps can be thrown around and cranked up and beaten the heck out of and still keep on playing. My tube amps..are my babies...I pamper them because they are what I record on and in smaller venues where I don't have to blast I am able to get the sweetest tones. IMO there are different tones I get from both types and I love having that ability. Johnny brings up a great point. IMO do I thinkl tubes will go away...not in my life time..but down the road...probably...just look at radio...how many tube radios are being manufactured anymore??


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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:57 pm
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I think John has a good point, that if players demand a simple quality sounding digital amp, that the industry will eventually be able to produce that amp. There must be a ton of electronics majors in college right now playing tube amps, thinking to themselves,"Man I know there,s a way to get this reactive sound.....maybe if I tried...." I'm an old fart and can't picture any but the well off playing a tube amp in 30 years. ART

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Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:06 pm
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Current solid state has its place, perfect for the PA system.
And great for practice amps.

But it is not there yet for use as a live instrument amp.
Things get better all the time so maybe someday.

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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:52 am
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peterp wrote:
But it is not there yet for use as a live instrument amp.
Things get better all the time so maybe someday.


Depends on your music style. If you play with nothing but distortion, a la Mesa Dual Rectifier, you won't lose much by going digital. It's easy to nail that sound in an amp modeler.

If you play clean or slightly dirty, that will take time.

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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:49 am
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nedorama wrote:
peterp wrote:
But it is not there yet for use as a live instrument amp.
Things get better all the time so maybe someday.


Depends on your music style. If you play with nothing but distortion, a la Mesa Dual Rectifier, you won't lose much by going digital. It's easy to nail that sound in an amp modeler.

If you play clean or slightly dirty, that will take time.


Bingo! We have a winner.

I started playing guitar 20 years ago and used only solid state amps and was frustrated that I couldn't get the sound out of them that I wanted - on the edge of breakup and really gets dirty when I dig into the strings. Wasted money on pedals that couldn't get that sound either. I was also tired of being overpowered by other guys and their little tube combos. Tubes that are cookin' just have some sweet harmonics that carry across a room better than solid state for the type of music I play. So I went tube 6 years ago and never looked back.

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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:59 am
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Solid state advocates keep saying that the technology is always getting better and better to make SS sound more like tubes. Well then does that mean that they buy the latest model of SS amp every year or so as the technology improves? I cannot afford to keep buying new amps as the SS technology improves. Seems counterproductive too. I'm just going to stick with my same old tube amps that SS is chasing its tail trying to mimic.

But if someone wants to use SS soley for the purposes of the unique sound they have unlike tubes at all, then more power to them.

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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:11 am
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oh boy...johnny, i recall recently reading a heated debate elsewhere involving you with a very similar topic being discussed...lets keep this one civil :wink:

digital and SS ain't bad, if you want the tones they are capable of.

i just used a frontman 212 for a parade. i was playin jazz/christmas stuff on a float ridin through town (yea i know, its a tad early in the year for that stuff). it gets great cleans and is also great for outdoor gigs if you have no mic, because its stupid loud. i also kinda like the OD channel, but its an acquired taste and not the typical "fender" sound. its a cool sound in some situations. why i dont always use it is because it can be pretty muddy, and i tend to like transparency. its very low midsy. but i wouldnt say its like "bees in a tin can". its a rather convincing overdrive sound.

at any rate, i used it for the parade because its SS aka durable. my simple rule was "no tubes on the truck". its not worth the danger of harming the fragile little things, what if you hit a pot hole or something? got a moving stage? i'll go with my FM. glad i didnt sell it.

so yea that segues into the underlying poiint here. tubes have many many con's. but at the same time i love the simplicity of tube amps. you get great results with minimal effort (however, higher cost). i look at those con's as a price to pay for the convenience of getting great sounds. i rely heavily on dynamics, such as picking strength and my guitar's volume, so tubes are almost necesity. i cant pull it off as well with dirt boxes and digital OD. tube amps are like clean channels that can also get overdriven, but TRANSPARENT at the same time. what i mean is most SS OD circuits will include a mid hump. unless its done right such as in the ts-808, it tends to kill the mood.
also, digital has a lot of work to do regarding response and attack. i recorded a demo with a modeling software program, and the delay was hard to get used to.

true about tubes projecting better. they contain harmonics not found in any modeling software. its just the nature of the thing. its gotta be hard to fully replicate all the nuances of electrons traveling through a triode. honestly, if anyone can, they get a big applause from me, thats an insane feat to accomplish.

and yea, less knobs the better. im a plug-n-play guy. only thing between my guitar and amp is a wah pedal, maybe a chorus, depending on the songs. but thats only some of the time even. i cant have the extra distractions and tweaking, especially when the other band members are constantly giving you the "are you ready? hurry up!" between songs onstage. i tell them you have to play guitar to understand :roll: . but at any rate, i dodge that bullet now because i just sit my Pro Jr on a chair and plug in. done.


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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:28 pm
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Similar argument could be made for older muscle cars - they handle horribly, guzzle gas, and don't have creature comforts, but they have a 1000x more soul than their modern counterparts. I think many people here would rather have a 65 vette in great shape than a new Vette, yet there may be people who like only the new one. It's personal preference. It's also why i drive a 67 Pontiac convertible instead of something from this decade.

Costs - I have a '65 Bandmaster that I bought used, had the electrics all redone, new tubes, speaker and a combo cabinet, and it cost less all in than a new Hot Rod Deluxe. The older amps are actually easier and cheaper to work on because of the way they were built - with easily accessible and replaceable discrete component parts. Amp modeler break? Too bad. Send it back to the manufacturer who will usually toss it and send a new one. Or, you shell out for a new PC board, which may or may not be the entire amp...

For purists who want to spend the time, effort and money for great tone, tubes will stay and there's plenty of options of people building amazing tube amps that sound great or buying old ones and using them. Amp modeling is getting better - I use Amplitube and Pro Tools Eleven, but find that they're great for nailing that Mesa Rectifier sound at stupid gain levels that on headphones won't get you evicted. However, for clean Fender chime, they're not there yet. It's also much easier to stick a 57 in front of a Princeton, Deluxe or any other real amp and get the real deal recorded as fast. But, you lose the flexibility of changing the sound later on (which is why I record a mic'd amp track and a DI track at the same time at home).[/quote]

I'm with you on the tube amps but I'll stick with my 06 Vette.....don't think I'd want to do 150mph in a 65. :twisted:


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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:31 pm
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Johnny... can I hijack the thread a little?

I'm interested in a more versatile alternative to my SCXD.

What do you think is the best ss amp for home practice – must have phones out and CD in?

Doesn't have to be macho... 10" speaker is enough, but with a nice warm clean. No FX required (I think you posted on my thread about the Line 6 M13).

Was thinking a Frontman 25 with a Ragin Cajun might be good.

Thx.


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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:55 pm
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metal heads benefit the most from s.s. . they play totaly distorted all the time. they hit a pedal or a switch on the floor and then it's clean. when you play a tube amp you can totaly control the saturation with your guitar volume and even then some still like a little tube screamer. most people who play tube amps prefer the warmth and touch sensitive control of them. when they come out with a s.s. amp that sounds and reacts like a tweed twin and has a sweet reverb with NO modeling then they will have a winner. yeh, diodes , resisters , caps, mosfets, pnp and npn transisters don't cost as much as tubes and all it takes today to produce them. but you can't beat them and twenty years from now they will still be avalible. and those guys will talk about our vintage tube amps.


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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:56 pm
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Well, solid state has a few flaws too.

Any solid state amp with extensive features (Like amp modeling, built in effects Ect.) can go heywire if the current sent to the amp is not steady.

For instance, at most festivals they'll use generators which provide a fluctuating current so you can understand using solid state is not a great idea.

Funnily enough valves are fine with it.

Also this alternating current tends not to affect pedals but can effect processors

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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:15 pm
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I doubt this argument will ever be resolved, I own both and have heard good guitarist get great sounds from both. I do think there will always be a demand for tube amps but I think as technology continues to improve there will continue to be a gradual shift to solid state, especially among younger players. Solid state amps are generally less expensive and with the limited applications for tubes anymore outside guitar amps, the cost to manufacture is just going to increase. I really like the Cyber Twin. I also think for some guys they buy a tube amp because they think they have to have one and really can't tell the difference between the two. For the average player I think most would be satisfied with a good solid state amp but the tube amp will always be with us in my opinion.


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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:53 pm
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Till all the decent tube factorys go, then valve amps could potentially lose its tone since everyone who pushes their valve amps to the max find NOS tubes to stick in em.

Once the NOS valves go and the better factorys go (Like JJ( also Like mullards went the other month, and they were the some of the finest)) valve amps will lose it eventually, unless someone revolutionises the valve or a whole new factory pops up making new immense ones.

but before that happens solid state will probably be dancing all over it.

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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:23 pm
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First of all, I want to say that I won't group "regular" solid state amps in with digital modeling amps. IMO, they are two separate things: Solid State= transistor technology, and Digital= computer technology.


In MOST (not all) cases this is a dividing line between young and old. Older folks are used to buying something that is well-built and will last a long time if you take care of it and do simple maintenance. Kids growing up in this computer era are used to constantly changing technology that always becomes obsolete in a matter of months. If you buy the Brand "X" digital amp or modeling pedal, you can download things into it from on-line. But, next year that same company may no longer be supporting that outdated model, so you'll have to pay for an upgrade or buy a newer amp/pedal.

Computer/digital technology is advancing so fast, and IMO it only serves to make those companies more money by having the consumer keep buying udated products. Where are all of the Cyber (Twin, Deluxe, and Champ) amps? I haven't seen one of those in a store in a long time! A "good" tube amp can be kept running for decades by most competent techs. Digital amps are basically throwaway products; it's easier to replace the whole amp than it is to repair it. So, it seems to me that in the long run, those old tube amps may be more cost-efficient and will probably survive more bumps and bruises!

For making music, in my limited experience I've found that a decent tube amp will cut through the mix better than a solid state or digital amp at similar volume levels. (This is without miking the amps!) And as someone stated above, simpler usually is better. I used to own a Deluxe Reverb clone that had a switch to remove the reverb circuit from the signal path. When I switched off the reverb, there was a very noticeable increase in volume and tone. Playing live music with a tube amp (or maybe even a solid state amp) is Art and is REAL. Using a digital amp to play live (without going through a PA) is a sterile, FAKE copy of the real thing. Maybe digital amps would be better if they came up with their own sounds, and didn't try to copy tube amps. But, a digital amp won't let notes breathe and bloom. To be fair, digital amp technology is very good for recording... but I wouldn't use it for live music.


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