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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:30 pm
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I don't know, does it still boil down to one's and zeros? I'm not a digital guy. I don't think tubes are going anywhere any time soon. There's still a lot of tube amps being manufactured by major amp manufacturers. The ony SS amps I have are a 73 Pignose, an old Guild Four, and a GDec 30. The GDec really lacks in the tone department and the effects pretty much suck.

I don't know, maybe someday, but I think the amp modeling has a bit more to go.


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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:31 pm
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Whoa! That's very cool indeed, but I was thinking more along the lines of using a mic and multi tracking. You know amp, vocals, acoustic, bass,etc. Maybe that isn't what the computer can do? ART

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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:52 pm
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hi a.davis, thank you for your post, much appreciate the reasoned comments. i do agree digital ss amps can have a tone all their own. on a personal note, i also appreciate the tube amp emulation as well. it's the wide versatility and the ability to call up up these tones at will that made me switch to digital/ss completely.

as for computers and music vs guitars and strings, i suppose i have to respond in some sensible manner... computers are great for those who have the music in their heads but never quite mastered an instrument, but can master a computer + appropriate software. it allows those kinds of artists/composers to create music and share with everyone. all the more power to them. a lot of digital media is created by some very, very talented musicians, all on computer, without plucking a single string. on different note, there are performing musicians who have mastered instruments and wish to play to an audience. their instruments can be amplified with tube or digital/ss amps. having a digital/ss amp has nothing to do with not having guitar strings. i think you get the point, so i'll stop here.

then there's the rubbish about computers not being used in a live performance. been to a big-event concert lately and looked behind the scenes? no computers? really? now to break it you: performers perform - that's what they do, and if it means incorporating computers in their act, they will. successful performers will innovate and use everything they can to wow their audience for more. pretenders will continue to moan about one thing or another. one nice thing about computers is that nearly every kid has one, the smart garage bands (2010's) will use them to sound better than the 1950's garage bands.

as for i'm gonna buy this or i'm gonna buy that, aside from throwing one's money around, what has that got to do with innovation and pushing some limits? and after the noise, buy nothing more than a starbuck's coffee i would expect...

ciao,
johnny.


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Post subject: Re: tube amps: time to put them to pasture?
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:22 am
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Aspiring Musician
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johnny stecchino wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how many posts are dedicated to perpetuating various urban legends that tube amps are the holy grail of tone and at same time the number of posts dedicated to problems and the number of home-brew remedies, NOS-this-and-that, "rectifier", not tp mention the expense and pre-occupation with such in lieu of something useful. I suppose everyone needs a pet of one sort or another, maybe tube amps fulfill such needs. Otherwise I say out to pasture.

any supporting or differing opinions?

ciao,
the tube amp nemesis,
johnny.


I'm not crazy about starbuck's, not worth the money. Prefer my own brew at home.

You stated "Otherwise I say out to pasture."
And asked "any supporting or differing opinions?"

My opinion, for me, because I prefer to buy things that have a chance of retaining value, is to buy a good tube amp.

I now have a frontman, a line 6 interface, and pod farm running on a laptop. All these devices will end up in the garbage within 5 years, or less. Not because they don't sound good but becasue there will be replacements that will be much better and at a much lower cost.

My opinion has nothing to do with tone or creativity. Both of these are boundless.

Also, I grew up with 60's and 70's music and musicians who made it to the top of the charts in the '60's and 70's. I find myself revisiting the music, their lives and times, lots of good books now out. So I relate to the equipment they used for reasons other than tone. Fender understands this very well and provides product to meet this demand. It's the older guys like me with the cash for such toys they are marketing to. Kinda like a Harley, but let's not go down that road.

Value.
Nostalgia.


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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:27 pm
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hay aclempoppi, i'm not sure about the dell stuff but i'm sure there is something avalible, i actually record with a friend the recording equipment is his but check guitar center or some other sellers there is sooo much avalible. i actualy mike my amps and record dry and later add effects or what ever. my buddy is the recording genuis not me. it's all for fun anyway. there is software avalible for recording fender tones, marsall, vox and so on. most are avalible with interface stuff(stealth plugs, etc.).look around you never know hat you will find. maybe the holy grail that realy sounds like you....but it's digital so i dout it. theres another thread on the fender forum about laptops, kinda interesting.


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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:05 pm
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My 2 cents, I like my tube and SS amps. They are tried and tested and work! Computers for the application we are talking about just aren't at a point where I am willing to use them in a live setting. To say it will never happen is like a person saying that there would never be the ability to talk on a portable phone.


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:16 pm
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understand your feelings.

one more thing i want to point out, it's personally important to me. most of you probably have your health, good bodies, good eyes, muscles and nervous systems that work. count your blessings. i have met people with birth defects not in control of their muscles or nervous systems, but with intelligent minds trapped in twisted bodies. computers have enabled these poor souls to express themselves and enrichen all sorts of lives, theirs and ours. i hope this makes you think a little deeper. that's all i got to say tonight.

ciao,
johnny.


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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:00 am
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aclempoppi,

You didn't say, but I'm guessing your Dell is a PC, running either Windows xp or Windows Vista.

A couple of software recorders you may want to check out is audacity and KRISTAL. I think both are free. You only need one, so you can take your pick. One of those should get you started with the recording end.

Then you will need some way to get your sound into the computer. That means an interface of some kind. Either something like one of Line6's offerings - guitarport, toneport,etc - or maybe just a mic into your soundcard.

If you are going to record say a rhythm track, then a lead track - a low latency driver like the ASIO4ALL driver might help you with sync between the two (or three, or four). My guitarport already has an ASIO driver, so the additional driver is not needed.

You can also go the external recorder route, like a Fostex for example, but that gets more expensive.

Good luck


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Post subject:
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:49 am
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Hi Ramone!

hope everything is ok with you, great to see you up and about!!!

i'm not fully up to speed with all the line-6 gear have tried some line-6's offerings, my mates (here in SoCal) are "transitioning" to line-6, i am learning from them, and i'm pretty impressed with the tools, the support, and the sound. IMHO, line-6 is doing the right stuff, they are innovating & going places, this is an impressive company.

ciao,
johnny.


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Post subject:
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:57 pm
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johnny stecchino wrote:
Hi Ramone!

hope everything is ok with you, great to see you up and about!!!

i'm not fully up to speed with all the line-6 gear have tried some line-6's offerings, my mates (here in SoCal) are "transitioning" to line-6, i am learning from them, and i'm pretty impressed with the tools, the support, and the sound. IMHO, line-6 is doing the right stuff, they are innovating & going places, this is an impressive company.

ciao,
johnny.


Hi John,

Yeah, I've had several good days in a row - and I'm CERTAINLY NOT complaining. :lol: Unusual, and unexpected - but no complaints here for good days.

About the Line6 GuitarPort - I bought that years ago when they first came out. Yeah, I know - I was a sucker for the new stuff.

Even back then, I thought the future was pointing towards music made with computers. And I had more spendable income to buy with.

I'm not that well acquainted with the new Line6 stuff either, but from what I have heard and read about Line6, they have continued to move forward in developing new things, and not just rested on past successes.

A couple of local guitarist have used their amps in praise and worship services at the local churches. I was a little surprised at that because I had considered Line6 as leaning more towards "Metal". Apparently they are versatile enough to work well with country gospel and contemporary gospel music, since they have been doing that very thing. :lol:

The "amps" that come in the standard software package with the guitarport sound pretty good and with some tweaking they will do nicely to get you started. The add on software amp packs may be better, but I can't really say because I don't have any of those. I just tweak the standard ones to what I like and use them.

The ASIO driver that guitarport uses works pretty well on my system - no perceptible latency, and no drop outs.

And one really good point is - it isn't a "one-trick-pony" like many amps are - be it tube or SS. You have some versatility without even unplugging and plugging into something else - just click on some other "amp", or just click to switch effects off and on in real time.

All in all - the guitaport isn't to bad - in fact, it's pretty good, and I like it even better now that I have used it some. Once you get the amps set the way you like them to sound, you can just plug in and play - and record yourself too, if you have a recording software on your system. (that's where the good ASIO driver really makes a difference)

Oh Yeah .... you might be interested to know that one of the amps that comes with it is made like one of those Roland JazzChorus amps. It sounds great clean!

If you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer them. But be forewarned - I'm not any kind of engineer - I'm just an old guy that likes guitar music. (which means you might get a lot of the "I don't know" responses :lol: )


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Post subject:
Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:52 pm
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For what it's worth, I believe that digital amps and tube amps both have their places. A digital amp is great for someone just starting to play, because they can experiment with different sounds to get a better ideal of what they do and don't like about different amplifiers. That's a huge plus. The built-in effects are also a plus in this situation, as well as the flexibility of shifting patches on the fly with a floor controller. This makes a digital amp, in my opinion, the best way to go for beginning and novice players.

That being said, tube amps still sound the best. You may have to change the speakers, or the tubes, or play a dozen or more different tube amps to find the one you like, but you'll be glad you did. Every digital amp I've played, Johnson, Line 6, Fender Cyber, Vox, all have the same problem--jack of all trades, master of none. A good tube amplifier is generally a one-trick pony, but it does that trick very, very well.

So to sum it up, in my opinion, digital amps will help you figure out what kind of sound you're after. After you figure that out, and you get picky about your tone, you'll probably want a tube amp to get you there.


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Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:34 am
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That ^^^ seems like the best suggestion I've seen yet. Very much QFT.


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Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:17 pm
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i'll go one step further: maybe the digital ss amp is the end-state for someone's tone. in my case, i've settle very comfortably and happily on the CT-SE, i really enjoy the tones coming out of my CT-SE. for what it's worth, i use drives at the first level, adjust gain and volume to get the right amount of dirt, right amount of blackface reverb, and finally a particular effect to suit the mood (usually an echo or none). i typically run the compressor at medium, timbre on bright&light (some cases super bright or full body depending on tune), hum redux, noise gate on. this is one fantastic amp.

despite what i am learning about line 6 gear, which is quite impressive, i still come back to the CT's. i know them, and so far, they always exceeded my expectations. so i am sticking with the ct's, but will continue learning about line 6 gear.

ciao,
johnny.


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Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:25 pm
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I'm man enough to admit that you're right, Johnny. Maybe a good digital amp will nail the exact tone some players are looking for. That's why I think everybody should try one at some point. I definitely learned a lot from my experience with digital modeling, both amplifiers and multi-effects units. They allowed me to sample a lot of different amp and stompbox models so I could really home in on a sound that was more "me", without spending countless amounts of time and money playing and buying everything under the sun. That's how I settled on the few key types of effects that I use and the general category of amps that I like best. But if a player is lucky enough to find his own sound in a digital amp, I admit that he may not have to go any further. Isn't finding a signature sound what we're all trying to do? I was just observing that from my personal experience, modeling equipment was a step in the road that helped my get to the end result. But for the more tonally diverse player, or one who gets that one righteous tone from digital equipment, you definitely have a solid point.


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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:38 pm
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I've spent the last few weeks learning all I can about software amplifier modeling. What I have learned is that this technology is impressive! There are some truly powerful software packages out there that really nail the sound of a tube amplifier. All are great, but one or two in particular are particularly noteworthy.

AmpliTube Fender Edition

Vintage Amp Room by Softube

Peavey - ReValver

Waves - GTR 3

Native Instruments - Guitar Rig 4

Since this thread was formed, I took an interest in what software amp modeling technology was available. I guess this thread sparked an interest. I bought myself one of the little USB guitar interfaces and got a couple of demo versions of some of the above-mentioned software products.

Amplitube Fender is dead-on identical, to me. Endorsed and developed with Fender's help, they really nail some impressive vintage Fender amp tones.

Waves GTR 3 has another extremely well done variety of amps. Some of which are rare PRS custom picks. Has some good Marshall tones. Plus, they offer a "free" one year license of GTR 3 Solo, which includes 10 amps and a variety of cabinet sims.

Peavey's Revalver software has an extremely "tweakable" variety of amps, including their ValveKing. You can tweak and change/replace each individual vacuum tube within the program. Adjust bias, everything. Most impressive.

Softube's "Vintage Amp Room" is limited to three amplifiers, but what they lack in quantity they deliver in quality. Not a mere "snapshot" of a real amplifier; these behave like real amps. Turn up the gain, it behaves like an amp should.

Native Instruments' "Guitar Rig 4" didn't shine as brightly, to me, as far as tone quality, but their user interface is second to none. Some of the newer version 4 amps like Hot Plex and Jump are an improvement, though.

I didn't intend for this post to be a little mini review. I just wanted to report on the awesomeness I found with just a minor $100 hardware investment. The full versions of each of these programs is quite expensive, ranging $88 - $299 or more. I am currently in the process of determining exactly which one I want to purchase the full version of. Right now I am leaning toward either Amplitube Fender ($88, not too bad for the # of Fender-endorsed sounds you get) or GTR 3, for $135.

I mainly just wanted to let y'all know what was available since we had a thread here discussing the future of tube amps and the future of digital amp modeling, etc. All of this comes at the expense of needing a fairly powerful computer to do all the waveform processing. It takes the dry signal of your guitar, digitized by the USB interface at up to 96 kHz, and processes it in real-time, so it'll require a pretty beefy rig. My 1.8GHz core duo seems to require a slight bit of latency (256 milliseconds) which I, for one, seem to be able to deal with easily.

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