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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:38 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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when i was 18 with too much testosterone i used to think that way too. then i grew up some. while i can still appreciate the the music and hendrix as an incredible performer,

then there is stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFbDhbl3 ... playnext=1
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSMW4Gwi0y0

generally mike'd & mixed & pa'd.

and now to break it to you: if you buy the gear, no, it won't make you into Jimi Hendrix.

ciao,
johnny.


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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 pm
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Duran Duran and the Guess who are both excellent, but their tones aren't exactly that difficult to achieve, and a VST would be a good substitute for them.

I hope you aren't implying that Duran Duran and the Guess Who are "better" then Hendrix. As such an assessment is silly given the subjectivity of music. Hendrix's work is certainly quite a bit more complex, which is why I favor it. I like music that has a lot going on, take this for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFltqVS8 ... dded#t=114

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5poSw7tF ... re=related

In short, what I'm saying is to get certain tones that are quite responsive, such as saturated ones ala SRV or Hendrix, or jazz ones ALA birelli, you would want to use actual amplifiers, preferably high end ones.

For tones that require more digital response, or good bass response, you'd want solid state or VST.


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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:21 am
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Plexi, save your breath.Johnny is here to get his point across, period. :roll:


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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:05 pm
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budglo, yes i am trying to get a point across, even to you. that might not be possible, but i'll try.

my point was simple: many kinds of music, many kinds of performers, many kinds of audiences, many kinds of tools available. in the 60's, the available technology was what it was, it fit the culture of the time, and personalities of the time. it was a magical moment in musical history. then there's the 80's, 90's 00's and now we are onto the 2010's. the point: things evolve, a lot more musical tools to choose from, different culture, different sounds/music, different audiences, different personalities so why limit yourself to the 60's (technology)? why not use everything you can to expand yourself, your audience, your music, your culture? that's the point Mr. Budglo...

dear plexi, while the classical pieces are classics, i don't see how they relate to our discussion here. no, i was not trying to compare hendrix to the guess who or duran duran. see above. as for each of these, the point was that their music, the systems they use to create great music, the audiences, and the cultures are quite different. the constant is the audience appreciation.

ciao,
johnny.


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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:07 am
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johnny stecchino wrote:
budglo, yes i am trying to get a point across, even to you. that might not be possible, but i'll try.

my point was simple: many kinds of music, many kinds of performers, many kinds of audiences, many kinds of tools available. in the 60's, the available technology was what it was, it fit the culture of the time, and personalities of the time. it was a magical moment in musical history. then there's the 80's, 90's 00's and now we are onto the 2010's. the point: things evolve, a lot more musical tools to choose from, different culture, different sounds/music, different audiences, different personalities so why limit yourself to the 60's (technology)? why not use everything you can to expand yourself, your audience, your music, your culture? that's the point Mr. Budglo...

dear plexi, while the classical pieces are classics, i don't see how they relate to our discussion here. no, i was not trying to compare hendrix to the guess who or duran duran. see above. as for each of these, the point was that their music, the systems they use to create great music, the audiences, and the cultures are quite different. the constant is the audience appreciation.

ciao,
johnny.


Well they do relate in the opposite sense of what you were trying to prove. All they had was acoustics back then and that's what they did with them, incredible variety and incredibly complex music. Violins have still not seen their full potential.

The possibilities will ALWAYS be greater then the musician's creativity can muster, this is a fact that has been timeless in history. Not even beethoven would know what to do with all the tools at his disposal today.

My point is that, while evolving is good, limiting possibilities isn't. If someone wants to compose a song and you tell them "Use this VST" or "use my cybertwin" and you falsely claim they can get any sound they want out of these, then you are impeding art. For all you know, that guitarist could only have real chemistry with all tube amps, and the dynamics of VST's or cybertwins arent ever going to give him that.

It's like thinking you're going to get a clay toilet to feel the same as a ceramic toilet. What's the point in copying something? I like my VST's to be different because I already have a tube amp to use when I want a tube feel. When I want VST tone, I'll use my VST's.

It's the same case with guitars and violins. Violins are old technology, this doesn't make them obsolete. Tube amps are also not obsolete. Neither are theramins, old 80's synths etc.


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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:31 pm
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plexi, that Beethoven piece is awesome! I've listened to it over and over... :D

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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:26 pm
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I think this might contribute to this discussion and provide some food for thought, for those that are willing to think.

I watched a documentary about Les Paul.
A few things seem to be a constant with him.
He was always pushing ahead, and inventing new things for sound.

In the documentary, whether it's true or not, he was given credit for developing the guitar pickup, muti-track recording and reverb to some degree. Maybe other things too, but that's the things I remember.

They brought out that before this "new technology" - all music was live, played by musicians. And, while it did not say, the photos that I remember them using showed acoustic instruments - except for Les Paul's home made electric guitars. (there may have been a mention of a Strat - but the focus was on Les Paul and his inventions)

Can you imagine how the musicians of that day must have felt about all this - seeing their old way threatened by some inventions from this man.

And while the new things did not make everything else obsolete immediately, they did have their effect over time.

One example could be the arch-top acoustic guitar. The documentary seemed to have those as a common staple in the bands of the day. While they are still available today, they are few and far between, of limited use, and expensive compared to electrics.

Are they obsolete? That could be argued both ways. However, it does appear to me that their time has come and gone. I still like the sound of mine, at certain times, but that's just me. They do fit a particular niche.

All that is to point out that things continue to evolve. And, too, there will always be those that strive to hang on to their "comfort zone".

To ignore new technology is to limit yourself. Just as, to ignore what has gone before can be limiting too. IMHO - new technology just adds to your choices, not limits them.

A question about the comment about the Cyber-Twin -
plexi81 wrote:
you falsely claim they can get any sound they want out of these,

If this has been said, would you please provide a link to the statement, since I obviously missed it.


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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:00 pm
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Then you consider the strat,designed in 54.Compare it to the guitars of today.One would hardly say its obsolete,or seen its day. But hardly an innovative thing by todays standards.But put it in the hands of someone gifted and has a vision and its sheer magic.Its not that people are opposed to digital sound, but nothing has come along to catch anyones attention.Tube amps thrive today because of their reputation and tone and quite frankly nothing better has come along that would make them obsolete.You just have to look at which sells more, the twin reverb or the cyber twin?


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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:18 pm
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dear plexi,

i see you called upon the classical masters, toilets, violins, and accusations to defend your choice of tube equipment. your point varies with the wind, except to defend your choice of tubes. so please do what pleases you, but please don't involve me in your personal choices.

johnny.


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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:54 pm
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johnny stecchino wrote:
please don't involve me in your personal choices.


After reading this thread....this coming from you seems extremely ironic :wink:


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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:20 pm
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maybe to you. i would prefer being involved with something a little more meaningful. i'm just glad nobody's mom got involved. :wink:

ciao,
johnny.


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Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:03 am
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budglo wrote:
Then you consider the strat,designed in 54.Compare it to the guitars of today.One would hardly say its obsolete,or seen its day. But hardly an innovative thing by todays standards.But put it in the hands of someone gifted and has a vision and its sheer magic.Its not that people are opposed to digital sound, but nothing has come along to catch anyones attention.Tube amps thrive today because of their reputation and tone and quite frankly nothing better has come along that would make them obsolete.You just have to look at which sells more, the twin reverb or the cyber twin?


The issue about the Strat could make for some good discussion, (in support of the above statements) but since this thread deals with amps, I'll pass that by and go down to -

Quote:
"Tube amps thrive today because of their reputation and tone and quite frankly nothing better has come along that would make them obsolete"


The part about tube amps thrive today because of their reputation I believe is probably right on the mark. The part about nothing better has come along yet is questionable, IMHO - also the qualifier "that would make them obsolete" - well, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.

The software amps have come a long way in a short time. They may be there already, as far as sound quality goes. The kicker may well be, do you have enough computer to use them to their fullest potential? And the price is still high for a piece of software - compared to games, which is probably the top software category for sales, and therefore a measure that can be looked at. And the "price" would also have to include at least a part of the price of the computer to run them, since that is a requirement to use any software.

And that brings me to -

Quote:
"You just have to look at which sells more, the twin reverb or the cyber twin?"


First, again IMHO, sales aren't a good indicator of sound quality. As an example - just look at an amp a tube lover would love, the Fender Super Reverb reissue, a tube amp. Has it been discontinued? If so for what reason. It certainly could not be because of bad sound. For it to be gone, and say a Frontman 212 to still be available, the Frontman would have to sell better, right? Please understand, I am not saying the Frontman sounds worse, not at all. As a matter of fact - I have heard many good reports on it's sound. It's just that a tube amp person would consider it to be inferior, hence the comparison.

As for the comparison between the twin reverb or the cyber twin - both can easily be called tube amps.
What!?!?! Sacrilege, you say? :wink:
Remember the twin reverb, the CT and the CT SE all have tubes in them. :wink:

IMHO - the downfall of the tube amps will be brought on by the tubes themselves. Or, I should say, the lack of quality tubes.

Then musicians will be forced to learn new things with the new digital world, if they want to continue to make music.
(I wish another innovator like Les Paul and Leo Fender would come along)

And then we come to, - all the musical equipment in the world is worth nothing without the human element, the musician, (the broke musician, I might add) to create the music. So we come full circle - back to the person and what we prefer to use to create our music. And the why? Because it's fun and we enjoy it.

For now, I'm still loving the sound of my guitars through my CT SE. But who knows what tomorrow will bring? :wink:


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Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:53 am
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Ramone,

Well said, appreciate your voice of reason.

Many Thanks,
Johnny.


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Post subject: Re: Neither have I my Brother!
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:52 pm
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SlapChop wrote:
johnny stecchino wrote:
I find guitarists hanging onto tube amps really funny - they don't seem to realize what a throw back that is.


Not nearly as funny as software engineers who don't understand why guitar players hang onto tube amps.

I'm a heavy software amp user... my software of choice is POD Pro 2.0 and NI Guitar Rig, and I've used them both on lots of tracks. But as good as they sound, they don't ever feel like a tube amp. And, they still don't sound as harmonically rich... I think there's just too much crazy voodoo between pre-amp, power amp and speaker.

Not that it can't be duplicated some day, but I haven't played anything yet that does it. It's still just plain more fun to play a good amp.


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Post subject: Re:
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:48 pm
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SlapChop wrote:
johnny stecchino wrote:
I find guitarists hanging onto tube amps really funny - they don't seem to realize what a throw back that is.


Not nearly as funny as software engineers who don't understand why guitar players hang onto tube amps.

I'm a heavy software amp user... my software of choice is POD Pro 2.0 and NI Guitar Rig, and I've used them both on lots of tracks. But as good as they sound, they don't ever feel like a tube amp. And, they still don't sound as harmonically rich... I think there's just too much crazy voodoo between pre-amp, power amp and speaker.

Not that it can't be duplicated some day, but I haven't played anything yet that does it. It's still just plain more fun to play a good amp.

Yep, couldn't have explained it better....especially a good tube rectified amp....nothing feels like it but that.

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