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Post subject: My Local Music Shop's Challenge to Fender
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:11 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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My local small music store operator in Capitola, CA has had an epiphany: the new breed of super lo-cost tube amps in the pipeline over the next 6 months is going to "change everything". He says and I quote, "It's going to be like going to Sears in 1960 with all those great Supros and Danelectros going for next to nothing. I won't be able to sell any of the high-priced amps anymore! The business is going to change forever."

I won't bother to list the particular brands and amps, if you're an enthusiast you know already. But the point is, will Fender respond? Sure, Fender makes quality and quality will always sell, and at a premium. Granted. And we all know the Electars and Epiphones even the Pignose G40V and such haven't made a serious dent in the Fender firmament. Though the Epi VJ was certainly a wake-up call.

But this new breed of tube amps is from big-name brands. And they are mostly well under $500 for features and wattage ratings that Fender charges double or more for.

Is the business changing with rock-bottom Chinese production methods? Even Fender uses Chinese manufacture. But do we see a change coming, or will Fender just shrug the new amps off and just stick with the BJ as their one low end giggable tubular toy?

Is my dealer crazy or what?


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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:54 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Location: Rockville, MD
I dunno with the new Champiion and the Blues Jr. and Pro Jr. Fender is right in the mix pricepoint wise. The only thing missing is a head but fender does not make many heads anyway. I own two of the three listed above and am very satisified. I owned one of the other manufacturers amps you are referning to and although it was okay it did not move me so it went back to the dealer.


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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:25 pm
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Thing is, the real breakthrough price-point bang-for-buck deal rapidly approaching is in sub-$500 widely giggable amps. Great as they are, the BJ and PJ are barely gonna make it in a small club date, and they offer none of the special features coming in some of these new competitors. Things like speaker-emulated lo-Z outs for direct PA and recording, power soaks, swappable power tubes etc all for not just under $500, but under $400.

The new breed is offering true channel-switching tubescence from 50 watts into a 12" up to 120 watts into 2-12s for under $500. This is a brave new world of bang for buck.

Me, I'm agnostic, Fender may well sit back and laugh at this stuff and I may agree with them since nobody has heard these amps yet (save one horrible video demo that probably gave the company X marketing dept suicide fits).

But. While these may be disposable amps, they do provide starving musicians the ability to be heard through tubes in about any given venue big as you please. And are Fender's Chinese workers so much better than company X's Chinese workers? Is their QC that much better? Hard to say--the new G-DEC 30 from China had massive QC problems, and the jury's still out on the G-DEC Jr.

But whether Fender responds or not, the winner is still the customer. More choices in inexpensive tube amps is always a good thing. Maybe we can't go back to 1960 and pick up an awesome Sears-rebadged Supro amp for $69. But if we can do the inflation-compensated equivalent by this time next year, I'm buyin'. And if the name on the front panel is FENDER...so much the better! (hint hint)


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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:38 pm
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Smaller amps like the BJ and PJ can easily be mic'd for some larger venues.

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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:27 pm
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Sure, you can mike a Champ 600 too. But let's face it, the BJ and PJ have a small, boxy sound (just limited by their tiny cab size--the Blues Deluxe sounds huge by comparison as the cab is the right size to resonate big bass freqs). They also lack any true, glassy clean (a la even the DRRI) or have much clean headroom. And they lack a lo-Z speaker-compensated PA out which makes PA enhancement a breeze. For a small band without roadies, having to kluge up a mic in front of your amp is a lot more hassle than just plugging in an XLR mic cable in the back.

I like the BJ, I own one. But in any of the real world club dates or especially blues jams even in small bars I go to, you get eaten alive if you don't mic, and most jams won't even let you mic, you just set up and play the amp you brung and get off.

Having the clean headroom, the bottom end, the overall punch of something gutsier than a BJ at your disposal is critical for me. But yes, in a pinch you can always stick a 57 on a BJ or PJ. That's what Franz Ferdinand does.


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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:29 pm
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I turned my BJ into a 2x12 combo, maybe that would be an option for Fender.

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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:41 am
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The EL84 is such an hugely overworked tube what with Fender and Peavey and all, I get the sense that Fender is finally responding to us 5E3/6V6 folks (a la the '57 Deluxe, Princeton recording and of course DRRI) and the incredibly sweet, phat dulcet breakup those 6V6s provide. Man, I would love a twin 12" 6V6 amp! Or a head with separate twin-12" bottom. And make it in China on a PCB so I can afford it.


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:06 am
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Maruuk,
Who is company X? What companies are making these new amps with all of these features for under $400? I'd like to check out their websites. I need to buy an amp, but I am frustrated with Fender's limited features for the dollar. I dig the Fender sound, but I'm not willing to pay $1,000 for a speaker-emulated direct output. And I know I'll need to buy a power soak as well for jamming through the amp's speaker, so it really adds up. I love Fender, but I'm not willing to buy a Fender amp with all of the features that I want after buying my American Deluxe Strat. Don't anyone tell me to buy a cheaper strat, it's too late and I don't regret it! :D Thanks!


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:30 pm
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Since you ask (I don't cotton to mentioning Fender's competitors much on their site) but only since you ask, I'm referring to a specific series of amps which are promised and just starting to hit the market. And this is just what I know of to date, there may be plenty more where these came from:

Bugera has an all-tube lineup of heads and combos, all 120-watts starting at around $400 street price.

Kustom has the Defender coming out, though this has been delayed possibly into next year. All-tube, 50 watts, pine construction, single 12"...$399 street.

Peavey has the Windsor Studio coming out possibly this Fall. Single-ended Class-A mono-power tube switchable between several tubes, power soak, XLR-out, one 12", 15-20watts depending on tube.. $399 street.

Now the point of this thread is not to sell these products, but to point out that Fender needs to address this very important "sub $500 giggable-all-tube" amp market in some way beyond the B&PJs and their spread of solid state cheapies. Or perhaps they feel they do not. Or can't given the brutal margins in this sub-prime dogfight.

At any rate bjoe, there are a heck of a lot of guys just like you who spent a month's salary on their axe, and just need something tube and loud for the gig. They don't have even another $500+ to plunk down.

Bottom line is my local shop guy is suggesting these Chinese-built amps and more to follow are ushering in a new era just like the early '60s when EVERYMAN could buy a really nice new tube amp with just his weekly paycheck. And he could gig with that amp for years to come.

The BJ is fine. sort of. But when you could get all the Windsor Studio offers features-wise, or 50-120 tube watts for the same price, and one is built in Mexico and the rest in China, is that going to be something that Fender needs to address in its new product lineup for '08? We'll know in a few weeks!

I think a lot of hardworking guys and girls are tired of having to make giggable tube amp choices which affect their long-term financial goals.


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:54 pm
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I with you brother.


Maruuk wrote:
Since you ask (I don't cotton to mentioning Fender's competitors much on their site) but only since you ask, I'm referring to a specific series of amps which are promised and just starting to hit the market. And this is just what I know of to date, there may be plenty more where these came from:

Bugera has an all-tube lineup of heads and combos, all 120-watts starting at around $400 street price.

Kustom has the Defender coming out, though this has been delayed possibly into next year. All-tube, 50 watts, pine construction, single 12"...$399 street.

Peavey has the Windsor Studio coming out possibly this Fall. Single-ended Class-A mono-power tube switchable between several tubes, power soak, XLR-out, one 12", 15-20watts depending on tube.. $399 street.

Now the point of this thread is not to sell these products, but to point out that Fender needs to address this very important "sub $500 giggable-all-tube" amp market in some way beyond the B&PJs and their spread of solid state cheapies. Or perhaps they feel they do not. Or can't given the brutal margins in this sub-prime dogfight.

At any rate bjoe, there are a heck of a lot of guys just like you who spent a month's salary on their axe, and just need something tube and loud for the gig. They don't have even another $500+ to plunk down.

Bottom line is my local shop guy is suggesting these Chinese-built amps and more to follow are ushering in a new era just like the early '60s when EVERYMAN could buy a really nice new tube amp with just his weekly paycheck. And he could gig with that amp for years to come.

The BJ is fine. sort of. But when you could get all the Windsor Studio offers features-wise, or 50-120 tube watts for the same price, and one is built in Mexico and the rest in China, is that going to be something that Fender needs to address in its new product lineup for '08? We'll know in a few weeks!

I think a lot of hardworking guys and girls are tired of having to make giggable tube amp choices which affect their long-term financial goals.


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Post subject:
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:16 am
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Hi Folks,

Interesting comments. I will say this: we certainly aren't unaware of the low cost tube amp market, and the great success of our recent Champion 600 confirms what's going on out there. But you also get what you pay for, and that's why amps like the '65 Deluxe Reverb, '65 Twin Reverb, and '59 Bassman LTD are being chosen by more players than ever before. We'll continue to develop value-priced amps as well as fully professional models, like we have always done.

Thanks,

Shane


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:57 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Of course, the 600 is hardly "giggable" but props to Epiphone for taking the initial risk and virtually reinventing the dirt cheap class-A mini-amp market, and props to Fender for paying attention and following along with the twice-the-price 600. Both excellent products.

But back to practical, giggable tubessence. Existing cheap sub-$500 stageable amps like the Pignose G40v (40 watts/$320) and the Peavey Valveking (50 watts/$429) and of course the well-regarded Carvin Vintage 16 ($369/American Made!) are being met with this new wave of the above cheapies. Result: A new world of affordable tube goodness for the workingman and woman.

Is Fender's effort in this arena (the B&PJ) getting a little long in the tooth? Does Fender need to bring more affordable giggable tube amps into their lineup to do battle with this new crop of glass G.A.S.?

I like the BJ, I own one. It's highly moddable, like an old Chevy. Simple, loud for its wattage rating, and certainly giggable in a small bar. It is a beloved product, a classic.

But is it enough? This market is really heating up and if I were Fender, I wouldn't sit back on my heels and just point to the indisputed Fender quality that justifies the higher price tags. They need to get down and dirty with more than the FM series. More and more younger players are getting tube GAS. And there's going to be a lot of folding green going in directions other than Scottsdale if Fender isn't quick on its collective feet.

Two weeks to go. The whole finger pluckin' world is watching!


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:05 pm
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If by "two weeks," you mean the NAMM show, well...don't hold your breath. But as I said before, we are VERY aware of the types of amps you are mentioning. If and when we launch more "value-priced tube" amps to the marketplace, you can be sure that they will be 100% Fender, not just a me-too knee jerk reaction. Some of the amps you mentioned in your above post probably aren't chosen by as many players in a year as the Blues Junior is in a week.

Good thread.

Thanks,
Shane


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:47 pm
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There is a growing clamor for a lo-cost 6V6 amp from Fender--everybody and their homely sister's using EL84's in everything. A Princeton Reverb on steroids--20 watts like the original Deluxe Reverb as opposed to the Princeton's 12--mine was never enough for club work. A 10" speaker to hold size weight and cost down. Street it for $499 and bar the door, Katy!


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:05 pm
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You know, there's a real parallel between Harley-Davidson and Fender. Both American icons, both suffered near collapse and miraculous recovery. And both struggle to maintain the tension between milking their classic values and designs yet managing to embrace state-of-the-art technology at the same time.

Each new NAMM show these days, I find it most fascinating to see how Fender tries to achieve that balance, including the challenge inherent in Chinese manufacturing best embodied in the brand new Behringer wholly-owned factory at Zhongshan. This is a whole new world of ultra-lo cost labor, and the demands on quality control given the vast cultural and language gaps are staggering.

As a lifetime Fender owner and one-man cheering section for this American icon, I say GO FENDER! There are still a few products left that make you proud to be an American just by firing them up, whether it's V-twins or 6V6s.


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