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Post subject: Fender Hot Rod Deville Problems
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:20 pm
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I was getting subdued muddy tones (especially from my distortion channel!) out of my 4x10 deville. I switched out all the preamp tubes with Tung-sol 12ax7's. It has improved a little but not buy much....


Could it still possibly be the power tubes? I am getting no problems with speaker volume. Any possible theories would be much obliged.

Thanks-


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:18 pm
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I'd try the power tubes.


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:39 pm
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Yep the tubes Fender uses arent exactly the highest quality.I have some JAN Phillips in my Bassman and they are the nicest sounding tubes i have used.


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:51 pm
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But i was under the impression that when power tubes go out the amp stops working. Do they have such an integral part in the amps tone to produce the kind of symptoms i am having?


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:13 pm
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Yep, they don't have to fail completely.


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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:22 pm
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Generally speaking, it's easiest to assume -- at least initially -- that tube amp problems stem from bad valves. Not only are they the cheapest and easiest components to replace, they are usually the culprit. The nature of tube amps is that something will eventually go wrong. Tubes get old, tubes fail. The vast majority of the time a valve, either a preamp or output tube, will give you problems.

With regard to power tubes, they tend to sound squishy and cause a noticeable volume loss when they begin to fail. You should perhaps invest in a couple pairs: one to put in the amp, and one to keep handy in case you lose one later on. A lot of people on these (and every other gearhead forum) swear by JJs, but I've had good luck with Groove Tubes myself. I think, however, that I'll order a pair of JJ 6L6s next time I need tubes -- worth a try, I think. For preamp tubes, I'm a devotee of Tung-Sols. As you'll discover when your DeVille gets running at full steam again, they sound excellent!


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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:01 am
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Vulkan wrote:
...............but I've had good luck with Groove Tubes myself. ......................



+1 :D

Me too! But every time I say this, others come along to "shout-me-down".

I guess maybe they either don't make as much profit from Groove Tubes, or just don't have them to sell. (they wouldn't want me to muddy up the water with the truth :lol: )


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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:13 am
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No shouting down. If you gig a lot, IMO GT's just don't hold up. I've used JJ's and Tung Sols for years. The GT's in my HRDlx lasted about 4 months before one power tube shorted and 2 preamp tubes went microphonic. They sound okay to me anyway, until you start to turn the volume up. That's when things get nasty. The JJ's in my HRDlx were three years old when I sold the and all still fine. The first thing people with HRD series amps is dump the tubes and change the speaker. I left the speaker stock in mine. Whatever works for you is great though. Fender owns Groove Tubes, that's why there in your amps.


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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:55 am
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See what I mean??? :wink:
Didn't take long did it? :lol:

Here's a thought;

Fender amps come with Groove Tubes. Why??
Does Fender want their amps to sound their best - or do they want them to sound terrible? What tube is the amp designed around - and designed for?

Maybe you say - It's because they own Groove Tubes, so they can get them cheaper.
But couldn't they have bought just about any tube business? But, they choose Groove Tubes.

Or, you could think of it this way. If YOU were making and selling amps - would you want bad tubes that would surely kill your business - or tubes that you feel would make your amp sound it's best? (notice the "you feel" qualifier) (which says "opinion" - and therefore changes with each individual)

As for the reliability and longevity of Groove Tubes. IMHO (notice "opinion" again - just like yours is "your" "opinion" ) One "brand" is about as good as the other. (talking strictly "reliability" here) Meaning - it's "hit-or-miss". You might get one that lasts 30 years - or it might go bad as soon as the amp is turned on. And anything in between.

I just had to replace a tube in my CT SE. Was I happy that it went bad? No! Did I like having to replace it? No, certainly not! But that's what you get when you use tube amps.

The "un-reliability" of tubes, and tube amps, is one of the main reasons why solid state amps were made.

Over the years, I have gotten caught up in the "hype" surrounding this tube, or that tube, - which ever was the favored tube of the day. (or "flavor of the day" :lol: ) I wasted a lot of money buying up different tubes to try. (one reason I have more than I'll ever use with what ever time I have left)

Conclusion to all the tube swapping? - You MIGHT get some very small difference in sound with one tube from another. But, a greater difference could be had by simply turning the tone knobs on the amp. A speaker change was usually more effective at changing the "tone" of an amp, than changing tubes was - IMHO.
But we're talking tubes here, not speakers.

And then there's the idea of - buy an amp that already sounds good to you. That way you don't have to try to change things to make it sound the way you want it to. And then you can concentrate on the more important thing of just making music. :D

As for using the amps often - I still use my guitars and amps just about every day. I might take a day off every once in a while - but that's not often. But, I do move and treat them with care, and like they are the fragile things they are. Which is what I have found over the years to work best for me.

A foam lined amp case can help some. But mostly - just make sure that who ever is carrying and moving your equipment exercises some care and gentleness in it's handling. (if they don't - let them go, and get someone that will do the job the way you want it done)


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:41 am
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Fender amps come with Groove Tubes because Fender owns Groove Tubes.
Groove Tubes don't make tubes they source and rebrand their supplies from other companies.

For the most part the 6L6 and 12ax7 they provide are sourced from Sovtek, they are actually a solid tube originally destined for military use but not really intended for musical instruments. And primarily they are an inexpensive tube that helps keep the all important costs down.
A sovtek 12ax7 can be had for under 10$, where a TungSol is around 25$ and NOS easily pass 50$ a tube.

Oddly if you look up a 12ax7 Sovtek rebranded as a GrooveTube the price jumps to 15$+ for the name change.

JJ's has cheap ones under 10$ too, as well as good quality gold plated ones over 30$.

In the end it is all in your ears, if you like what you are getting stick with it!

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Keep on Truckin, Going full speed ahead down the highway to hades.


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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:50 am
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Boy are you defensive. Nobody shouted anything down. If you like them it's all good. I as well as many others on many other forums had problems with them. Groove Tubes is NOT a tube manufacturer. They are a sorting house. My original GT's were rebranded Sovetek 5881's. New 5881's are not manufactured to the original specs and at least to me sound cold, sterile and brittle no matter where you bias them.

An amp is not designed for a tube manufacturer. Do you think the original Twins used Groove Tubes? Wht do JJ's, Winged C's, Tung Sol ect. sound so much better to most people?

If Fender cared about the sound, they wouldn't put such a low end Eminence speaker in the HRD series would they? They usually get replaced with Red Coats, Ragin Cagin, Cannabis Rex or Red Fang to name a few.

Apparently, you play a Cyber Twin right? It only has 2 preamp tubes correct? I have some preamp tubes that are still fine that are 30 years old. There lies the difference. A Twin Reverb has 4 12AX7's,
2 12AT7's, and 4 6L6's for a total of 10 tubes. With a CT you don't have to worry about a power tube shorting out during a performance or power tube bias. The CT is a Hybrid amp. Most of your tone comes from a chip that's pre programmed. It even has motorizes knobs. Power tubes are a much bigger issue. In some tube amps, a shorted power tube can cause other damage.

Just my opinion. It's worth what you paid for it, and I'm not getting into a pissing contest over it. It's all subjective. You do seem to think Fender can do no wrong though. If I hurt your feelings, I apologize.


Last edited by 63supro on Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:50 pm
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So my problem is probably the power tubes than huh......?

hehehe.....


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:35 pm
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63supro wrote:
Boy are you defensive. Nobody shouted anything down. If you like them it's all good. I as well as many others on many other forums had problems with them. Groove Tubes is NOT a tube manufacturer. They are a sorting house. My original GT's were rebranded Sovetek 5881's. New 5881's are not manufactured to the original specs and at least to me sound cold, sterile and brittle no matter where you bias them.

An amp is not designed for a tube manufacturer. Do you think the original Twins used Groove Tubes? Wht do JJ's, Winged C's, Tung Sol ect. sound so much better to most people?

Apparently, you play a Cyber Twin right? It only has 2 preamp tubes correct? I have some preamp tubes that are still fine that are 30 years old. There lies the difference. A Twin Reverb has 4 12AX7's,
2 12AT7's, and 4 6L6's for a total of 10 tubes. With a CT you don't have to worry about a power tube shorting out during a performance or power tube bias. The CT is a Hybrid amp. Most of your tone comes from a chip that's pre programmed. It even has motorizes knobs. Power tubes are a much bigger issue. In some tube amps, a shorted power tube can cause other damage.

Just my opinion. It's worth what you paid for it, and I'm not getting into a pissing contest over it. It's all subjective. You do seem to think Fender can do no wrong though. If I hurt your feelings, I apologize.


Sorry supro .... Apparently the "shout-me-down" was the wrong phrase to use. I can't think of anything at the moment that would have been correct.
But please accept my apology for using that phrase. I thought you would understand me, and I was wrong. Again ... I'm sorry for any problem I caused.

And, yes, GT is a tube checking, testing and grading operation - and not a manufacturer, like Sovtek, which they use a lot of. So also is Ruby Tubes a sorting, or matching company - or so I've heard.

Is JJ a manufacturer? Or another sorting operation? (I don't know which - for real)

The CT SE? Yes I play one these days - and yes it only has two 12AX7 tubes in it. But I also have some other amps "in the closet" that I've used - most being tube amps - except for a couple of solid states. My Twin does have ten tubes as someone said, and the Deluxe has nine, if I remember right. You tend to have a "collection" after so many years. :lol:

Oddly enough - those two 12AX7s are the two weak spots in an otherwise fantastic and tough amp.

I just had it apart yesterday to check the ribbon cable connectors from board to board. (just one not fully seated at one end - otherwise fine) The reason - I had dropped it (need to fire myself from trying to move it :lol: ) and didn't want to take the chance of any intermittent operation later. I was surprised at what I found.

I was expecting processors, memory chips and boards similar to my computer. What I found was mostly a bunch of resistors and capacitors on pcb boards, like a Twin board times 10 - at least. I'm not saying that any processors or chips were not there - just that I didn't notice any, for looking at all the "normal" amp stuff that was there. :D

Anyway - while I do like my CT SE, and GT tubes - thinking Fender can do no wrong? - that's not correct. I think you may be the only person I know of that is more critical of Fender than me. :lol: :lol: And, I think you have EVER RIGHT to be that way - from what I have read of your problems with that HRDlx you had. I too had problems - but with a Blues Juinior I had.

About hurting feelings and apologizing. These forums leave alot to be desired in good communication. No real facial expressions or voice tones to properly express what is trying to be said. So, I don't think either one of us meant to hurt the other - or anyone for that matter. I know I didn't. So, ... If an apology is needed ... I offer it ... and also accept yours as offered too. (even though it wasn't needed on this end) :D :D

Peace .... and enjoy that Rebel !


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