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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:01 pm
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I dunno how Carvin is doing the $399. I think it's doing a big sale and the amp lists for more. Their web site has the info about it. They sell over the web at that price and I don't know if they're in retail stores to try out or not. The Blues Jr. was on sale for $399 at a local Guitar Center a couple of weeks ago. My guess is, Carvin's trying to match the price of the Blues Jr. So do you know whether the Blues Jr. can do low volume using the preamp as well as Carvin's Vintage 16 can do low volume by flipping over to 5 watts? Anyone tried them both out? I played and loved the Blues Jr. a few weeks ago at a high volume since I was in a store with everyone making noise, sounding better than I ever have thanks to a good amp, but I know Carvin's good too. I'm going to have to make a decision.


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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:07 am
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No question that diode/triode switching gives you an interesting option that the BJ doesn't have, plus you're employing an American worker who paid taxes in America. At $50 less.

But then there's the highly-regarded new Class-A Crate V18 for $399. Probably made in a Chinese forced labor camp. Don't let your kids lick it.


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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:26 pm
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Carvin's only got a few stores and I've never heard it. Nobody's got anything bad to say about the reliability of the Blues Jr. except the tubes can go and need to be replaced but that's just standard as much as I play. Fact is, I played the Blues Jr. and had it set up all wrong and it sounded hard core when I was playing a couple of riffs with a borrowed pick, and people are standing there jaws agape, "wow you sound like the Scorpions." I mean, it's good. Fender's an all-American company with lots of U.S. production (including my Highway One Strat) and American management, engineers, production engineers, etc. So, I feel good about buying a Blues Jr. now that a lot of my questions have been answered, plus Fenders warranty is better than Carvins. Baja is just down the street from me and I got no problem with making stuff in Baja. The Chinese made stuff I'll stay away from for high voltage equipment until they get the quality sorted out over there next decade. Fender's a great company and so is Mattel, but that didn't help Mattel. My Squier Strat is from China, but then again it's not that good.


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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:02 am
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You know, Korean guitars (and cars for that matter) have been getting better and better. Won't be long before they start making amps, too.


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Post subject: Re: Boycott Chinese-built amps?
Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:14 am
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Maruuk wrote:
Today with daily reports of dangerous and even deadly Chinese import products flooding into America, we're faced with a whole new dilemma: Do we, the amp-buying public, need to vote with our wallets for American jobs, American workers, living wages, and humane conditions for those workers by buying American-made?

Fender makes a variety of excellent US and Chinese-built products.

Fact: Amps from China aren't inherently dangerous. Unless you lick them a lot.

Fact: I can't necessarily afford a US-built amp (though the American-made Carvin V16 is the same price as the Mex BJ).

Fact: To some extent, the influx of cheap Chinese products is undermining American workers, and organized labor in this country.

Now I'm poor, and buy a lot of cheap Chinese stuff at Wal-Mart (boo! hiss!) and other places. Including my music store, where I buy some relatively inexpensive Chinese-made Fender products.

Are all Chinese made products manufactured in hellish sweat shops? No. For instance, Behringer has just set a precedent and now owns and runs their own China facility in which the workers are relatively well taken care of. For China that is. The forced communal living conditions and work hours/conditions would violate most American worker standards, however.

Fact: I have no clue what Fender's deal is in China, and what conditions exist in that factory.

Fact: China is a direct economic competitor with the United States. And we are losing the battle...bigtime. The imbalance of trade is a disaster according to the head of our GAO. Which loses jobs for us, hurts organized labor, reduces our wages and hurts our economy across the board

I conclude with this: If I was rich, I guess I would boycott Chinese-made goods and buy mostly American. But I'm not. So I buy without concern for source, just what I need to survive as a musician and make great-sounding noises. I can't afford to be a moralist.

How about you?

I wont buy them. I will save my money and buy the American made amps, or even the Mexican made Fender products.


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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:04 am
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I gotta admit, Randy, after all these well-considered opinions are in on the matter, you've come to the correct decision. Maybe we can't buy American TVs or toasters anymore, but there are affordable American (or at least NORTH-American Fender) made amps. And they're really good.

It may be just amps. But it's a start. Harley was down and out. But came back bigger than ever. Fender struggled under CBS, but employees bought the company back from those cynical jackals and Fender is back better than ever.

Maybe with all these robovote machines our ballots don't get counted anymore. But our dollars sure do. I'm gonna reconsider and try real hard to hold the line on this. I want the men and women who built my amp to have a job, healthcare and safe kids right here at home.

Sure it's a small gesture in the raging economic winds blowing offshore, but why not spend a little more and buy American? Our votes are tiny gestures too, but these votes really count!


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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:30 pm
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Checked around and found many, many reports of reverb failure in the Carvin. Magnets big and near the tank. Also, I saw some people saying that the Carvin gets close to the Fender sound, but I want the real thing. Also, I learned around here somewhere that the preamp volume control lets you adjust the tone on the Blues Junior without getting loud, while the 5 watt/15 watt switch is not having a big impact on the Carvin's loudness. So I passed on the Carvin and went with a Fender Blues Junior.

It's awesome. The build quality is very good. Everything works very well. Everything feels very solid. I'm in awe of the tone, and shocked I'm playing music that good.

I'm glad it's made in North America. Where I live, I'm pretty close to Mexico, and so I'm aware that we're really pretty linked up between Corona in California where my guitar was made and Baja where my amp was made. Plus, Fender's an all-American company, the amp was designed in the United States, marketed, sold, etc. in the United States, and the price is low enough for me to afford it because it was assembled down in Baja. Keep the assembly up here, and then the people from Baja come up here to do the assembly, and then did we solve a problem or make one? I couldn't swing the Custom Shop '57 amp where they hand-wire it, but this little Blues Junior sings. They did a great job on it and its immaculate right out of the box. I made sure to get one new in the box so all the guys experimenting (like me on prior occasions) and screwing around with the floor demos didn't mess it up.

I didn't get the Chinese Champ 600 amp but I'm not against it or anything. That amp is very cool. In the end, I was just willing to step up to the Blues Junior to avoid being limited in terms of how far it can go due to the power and vintage-modified by design. Truth is, the Champs very appealing and I still kind of want one of those little Champs, but I'm not going to go there right now. I'm glad I made a North American product and I hope Fender keeps its focus on North American built stuff except for the Squier line and the very budget stuff. We do need the jobs here and also Fender will get too far away from the manufacturing and hollow out if they outsource everything to those Chinese subcontracotrs and they'll lose their touch for efficient manufacturing of quality stuff.

So, my guitar-amp isn't all made in the U.S. but it's all made in California (including Baja)


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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:41 pm
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I can't believe how long this post is strung. What difference does it make if your amp is built by mexicans in California, or Baja California, or americans in Phoenix, or chinese? If Fender did not have an inexpensive amp in their product line, folks would buy another chinese amp sold by someone else, if it met their needs. The fellow that listed Harley Davidson as an all American success story needs to understand that Harley is not competing for the inexpensive transportation market. They build a great product, just like the Fender custom shop does, and both sell to the people who can justify the expense. I would love to own one of those hand-wired beauties, and maybe someday I will, but my needs don't justify it. My chinese amp puts out clean power, with the Fender tone stack and reverb sound that we all love. The Fender folks will be able to stay in business, and continue to build the limited number of custom shop amps, and we all can purchase something that we can afford.


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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:55 am
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Nobody's disputing that a major musical instrument company needs bottom-feeder product to not only compete at the low end of the market, but also build brand loyalty from the bottom up. Get newbie customers playing Fender and sticking with Fender. And if you scan the forums, Fender QC seems to be excellent down at the Ensenada plant, they are making quality hardware down there.

The Chinese-built stuff is more spotty. A lot of QC problems with the G-DEC 30 and too many on the 15 as well. And the fret work on the Affinity series is atrocious. Play at your own risk. Thought to be fair, Fender has been really good about swapping out any defective G-DECs with new ones.

Carvin seems to be able to make affordable American-made products including bottom-feeder tube amps like the V16, which undercuts the BJ by a full $50. Not saying they are as good, that's a whole other debate. But it's possible. Though somebody here suggested facetiously that since Carvin is in San Diego, maybe the workers are "just visiting" from South of the Border. Quien sabe?

I'd say there are valid arguments on either side of this issue. And the third argument is of course toss NAFTA, GATT and the WTO and restore protectionist tariffs tp protect American amp builders from having to compete directly against Asians making ten cents a day.


Last edited by Maruuk on Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:59 am
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I don't eat Chinese food. :roll: :wink: :twisted:

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Don't leave home without it!


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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:29 am
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Blues Juniors can be had at Guitar Center and Sam Ash, black tolex or blonde, for $399. Just tell GC you'll buy it for that, and they'll do it. I think Sam Ash lists for $399. Carvin's Vintage 16 still looks to be $399 on the www for delivery.


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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:31 pm
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If you think our economy will benefit from subsidising labor, at more than its worth, you need look no further than the former soviet union, for the answer. The socialist system benefits no one, and only spreads the misery around. If you force Americans to pay more for their imported goods than the rest of the world, who would benefit? There is a saying that a rising tide floats all boats, and if you are going to pay semi-skilled labor more than their labor is worth, then it will be necessary to raise everyones wages, to be able to buy those goods. This, of course, makes our money worthless, as the rest of the world isn't going to subsidise our economy.We cannot sell our high priced goods on the world market, so our companies would not be able to survive. The best solution is to do just what we are doing, and let all of us compete on equal terms. Please let Fender continue as a business on the world market, and we can all purchase what we can afford to spend. I really like my FM100H!


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Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:15 am
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You know Bill Moore makes a lot of good points. Fender right now is massively expanding the Custom Shop area going global with giant lounges in Germany and other countries around the world. The future for American production has to be the mid-top end, best quality music instruments in the world. American labor costs too much to just do the same thing that's done in Vietnam with particle board and whatnot. I think it's supremely cool that Fender is making American mean the best quality music instruments including amplifiers which are an extension of the guitar. When I make my first ten million, I'm going to load up on the Custom Shop guitars and Amplifiers, and all that money overseas is looking at it. The Japanese and Germans and other places in the world are into American historicity kind of authentic American icons, like Fender. They represent something to the world. They're the heart and soul of America.

So, yes, some of us Americans with limited budgets like me at present are buying these great little Blues Juniors from neighboring Baja, and Highway Ones with Baja pickups or Mexican Strats made in Baja, but if Fender can get this great worldwide Custom Shop push going, plenty of Germans and Japanese and yes wealthy Mexicans (travel to Cancun sometime to meet plenty of them like I have done) will buy American-made Fender American and Custom Shop products that are the best in the world.

Fender, if you're listening, I've got major connections into Taiwan including a spouse and children who speak Mandarin and those guys are loaded. Loaded beyond belief. You ever want a rep in Taiwan (I'm a professional guy) then look no further. Listening Brad Traweek? Nobody can rep Fender better than somebody like me who plays Fender instruments and loves them. I know . . . you've got that covered. No problem. Push that Fender Custom Shop worldwide and that still benefits me, since I'm not far from Corona.


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Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:05 am
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It's pretty funny to even suggest that the very tariff-protectionist system that made America great from 1787 to 1995 (when NAFTA/WTO and then GATT began to destroy our way of life) is "socialist"! It is to laugh! Especially when since that time we've lost 3 million manufacturing jobs (including amp-builders!). And the adjusted wages of working stiffs in America has DECLINED since the 90's. And the dollar has collapsed. Not to mention our balance of trade and deficits are a disaster--but don't take my word for it, those are the words of David M. Walker, Comptroller General of the United States. Surprise surprise.

I like strats point: now guys from Canada and even Haiti(!) can afford Fender Custom Shop amps with our dollar turning into Banana Republic Charmin. So at least something good comes out of this NAFTA freefall giveaway!

Ya gotta love Fender. They have a smart balance of products across the spectrum and like Harley, they have very intelligently exploited their classic American heritage.

In all the above excellent posts of every opinion, I'd say we can all agree that all things being equal we'd rather support an American amp company like Fender than a Behringer or a Roland or a Vox or a Marshall. At least when you buy the amp, the profits and taxes stay here. And Fender American workers gain value and job security, even if the guys who screwed the amp together are in Chinese slave labor camps.


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Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:36 pm
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Maruuk wrote:
It's pretty funny to even suggest that the very tariff-protectionist system that made America great from 1787 to 1995 (when NAFTA/WTO and then GATT began to destroy our way of life) is "socialist"! It is to laugh! Especially when since that time we've lost 3 million manufacturing jobs (including amp-builders!). And the adjusted wages of working stiffs in America has DECLINED since the 90's. And the dollar has collapsed. Not to mention our balance of trade and deficits are a disaster--but don't take my word for it, those are the words of David M. Walker, Comptroller General of the United States. Surprise surprise.

I like strats point: now guys from Canada and even Haiti(!) can afford Fender Custom Shop amps with our dollar turning into Banana Republic Charmin. So at least something good comes out of this NAFTA freefall giveaway!

Ya gotta love Fender. They have a smart balance of products across the spectrum and like Harley, they have very intelligently exploited their classic American heritage.

In all the above excellent posts of every opinion, I'd say we can all agree that all things being equal we'd rather support an American amp company like Fender than a Behringer or a Roland or a Vox or a Marshall. At least when you buy the amp, the profits and taxes stay here. And Fender American workers gain value and job security, even if the guys who screwed the amp together are in Chinese slave labor camps.


I'll say one thing for the Fender Forum. It is well represented by intelligent, articulate people who are dedicated and loyal to the Fender brand. Both sides of the issue can make convincing arguements
for or against buying Chinese amps. My problem with these products is that in other sectors of the economy their products have been found to be of fair quality at best to unsafe at worst. Look at the toy as well as the food sectors. The truth is that China' :roll: s economy is booming at the expense of our own. Almost anything we purchase is from there. Do you think they really care about Americans as customers? It appears that they have become the major economic power in the world by copying our system and using it against us. Can we really blame them? I for one have always liked American made Fender products. I also like the Mexican products and it makes me feel good to know their Mexican factory is so close to Corona. It's easier to keep an eye on quality. I also see nothing wrong with Fender marketing Chinese amps especially overseas, but when it becomes difficult or impossible to purchase a Fender product which is made in the western hemisphere, thats where my loyalty ends.


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