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Post subject: Boycott Chinese-built amps?
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:47 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Today with daily reports of dangerous and even deadly Chinese import products flooding into America, we're faced with a whole new dilemma: Do we, the amp-buying public, need to vote with our wallets for American jobs, American workers, living wages, and humane conditions for those workers by buying American-made?

Fender makes a variety of excellent US and Chinese-built products.

Fact: Amps from China aren't inherently dangerous. Unless you lick them a lot.

Fact: I can't necessarily afford a US-built amp (though the American-made Carvin V16 is the same price as the Mex BJ).

Fact: To some extent, the influx of cheap Chinese products is undermining American workers, and organized labor in this country.

Now I'm poor, and buy a lot of cheap Chinese stuff at Wal-Mart (boo! hiss!) and other places. Including my music store, where I buy some relatively inexpensive Chinese-made Fender products.

Are all Chinese made products manufactured in hellish sweat shops? No. For instance, Behringer has just set a precedent and now owns and runs their own China facility in which the workers are relatively well taken care of. For China that is. The forced communal living conditions and work hours/conditions would violate most American worker standards, however.

Fact: I have no clue what Fender's deal is in China, and what conditions exist in that factory.

Fact: China is a direct economic competitor with the United States. And we are losing the battle...bigtime. The imbalance of trade is a disaster according to the head of our GAO. Which loses jobs for us, hurts organized labor, reduces our wages and hurts our economy across the board

I conclude with this: If I was rich, I guess I would boycott Chinese-made goods and buy mostly American. But I'm not. So I buy without concern for source, just what I need to survive as a musician and make great-sounding noises. I can't afford to be a moralist.

How about you?


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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:41 pm
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This reply is not intended as a political opinion or statement in any manner or form.

I own a VOX China made that is still in the shop after 2 meltdowns.
I am dissappointed in this VOX product.
Until Fender disappoints me I don't care where they are made as long as their QC is up to their's and Leo's standards.

I have no comment about sweat shops beacuse I don't have any facts to support any staement of this type.


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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:06 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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No question the diligence of the QC applied by the OEM to their Chinese-made products is a major factor.


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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:39 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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I say find out about a specific amp before you buy it. If a Chinese amp has a good reputation, and is what I'm looking for, I'll buy it. But of course, if you've got the money buy the American equivalent.


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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:34 pm
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If we boycot chineese amps and guitars, we'll be playing washtubs with a broom handle on the. Oh they're made in China too.


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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:54 pm
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Aspiring Musician
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Yeah, musicians are probably the last class of worker in the world to expect an economic protest from. We spend most of our time trying to come up with beer money. Though even I might balk if Guitar Center was offering a new line of "G-Had" tube combos for $50. But GAS is terrible taskmaster...

"Wait'll you hear 'em cranked! They EXPLODE!"

"Huh. Only $50 bucks, hmmm..."


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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:58 am
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I don't think you should buy into the idea that the chinese are puting americans out of work. Some manufacturing has moved over there including evidentally, my new FM100H. It could never be produced by labor with the american standard of living at its price point. However, I don't think the chinese designed that amp, I'm sure it was designed over here by americans. Just as the grocery man does not spend as much money with me, as I do with him, mean that we have an unfair trade imbalance. He pays his employees who in turn may patronize my business, or he may purchase vegetables from others in my family, in short, the money circulates. I know big labor bemoans the fact the semi-skilled manufacturing jobs are being done in other parts of the world, but americans would not be better off,(nor would the rest of the world), if tarrifs were imposed on my chinese amp, to make it as expensive as a 100W Fender custom shop amp. Economics knows no borders, and forcing the citizens of a country to pay higher prices for imported goods, only lowers their standard of living.


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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:40 pm
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When you buy a Chinese made amp, or any product you are putting the economic well being of the U.S.A. and/or your own country over the barrel. Yes, it is cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to buy; but the end cost is of conscience, not cash. For all concerned it comes down to the difference between what is right - and what is easy.


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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:59 pm
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Rock Star
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It does puts American manufacturing jobs on the line. We make virtually NOTHING in the US. Amps and guitars were expensive in the 60 too. My 72 Strat was 300 bucks back then. Quite a bit of money for the regular working man. My 64 Vibrolux Reverb was around $250 if I remember correctly. This stuff is manufactured overseas because of corporate greed and a higher profit margin. We no longer have Blue Collar manufacturing jobs available for the folks in the US. The only jobs around are Mc Jobs if you get my drift and jobs involving a Bachelors degree just to get your foot in the door. Many engineering jobs are in India, manufacturing jobs are in Asia. and Mexico. How come some company's can manufacture here and still compete? Because their profits aren't as large. Think about it. As lond as we buy this stuff it will continue. I do own a Chinese made guitar a Mexican made amp but I own 7 other american made guitars that I will never up.

Sorry about the rant. I was in the manufacturing industry (Machinist) for over 20 years. My job as well as many other peoples I worked with are overseas.


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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:47 pm
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I am in the auto repair business, and at the time I started working, there were many oldtimers who could troubleshoot and fix your points type ignition cars. Shortly after I started, electronic ignition came out, and many of the old hands refused to adapt. We lost a lot af good hands, but it wasn't the vehicles fault, it was the tech who refused to educate themselves. Later we had mechanical emission controls, then electronic, then computer controled systems. The bar has raised for the mechanic, and so has the salary. The jobs for the lesser skilled tech has disappeared, but I don't think we would be better off with a goverment program to ensure that those jobs are availlable to individules who refuse to educate themselves. The same holds true for the semi-skilled manufacturing jobs, those folks can better themselves in other areas, and I don't think I should subsidize their employment by paying a higher price for goods, just to provide them a job. I compete in the marketplace with a product, (quality auto repair), with all of the other shops in town. Sure most of my customers will patronize my shop regardless of price, but I have to be competitive with the other shops around, just to attract new customers. I am not the cheapest in town, but I will fix your car, and stand behind my work, and that is the product I am selling. Average knowledge doesn't attract business locally or globally. Let the chinese produce the cheap goods while they can, because the indonesians are trying to get the business, and they will.


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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:54 pm
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I don't care where it's made as long as it's a quality product.

Look at all the Ibanez products made in China. They're high quality. Same with Epiphone.

My point is that it's not the country that makes a product have high or low quality, it's the quality management practices of the company that operates in that country, which determine whether or not you get a quality product.


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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:30 pm
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See how many pieces of equipment you can buy when you're unemployed. As far as mom and pop garages go, I hope everyone's well schooled in Hybrid Technology. Nobody wants the government to get involved. Skilled labor is what this country was built on. Thank heavens for Martin guitars. Not everyone wants to work with computers or work for Walmart. I am self employed and do well, but I still feel bad for people who loose their jobs to foreign competition.


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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:49 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Exactly. NAFTA & the WTO put American amp and guitar builders directly in competition with fourth-world workers in sweatshops and far, far worse. These workers have state-subsidized healthcare. They often live communally under conditions utterly unacceptable to Americans.

Let's take one shining example: Behringer's new wholly-owned state-of-the-art ISO9000 facility in China dubbed "Behringer City." This is most unusual since most American companies like Fender simply contract with existing Chinese manufacturing operations to get their products made.

If you look at the operations per se, conditions seems reasonable, clean and efficient. Much like a better American factory. But peel back the facade a bit and the conditions are not only described by a few minutes in the plant. The workers are worked very hard. Their quotas would be considered oppressive in the States--an American union would strike these conditions in a heartbeat.

Workers are inducted form around the country, and are forced to live communally in strictly-controlled company housing. This is very similar to the oft-reviled vision of Henry Ford when he had his Ford workers living in much the same way--highly-managed social engineering where everyone was expected to go to the company-supplied church of Henry's choice every Sunday.

Workers are between the ages of 17 and 25. It's understood that conditions are so oppressive that workers are burned out after that age and must be replaced by younger, hardier fodder.

In America, this would be known as a sweat shop. The forced company housing and social engineering aspects alone run counter to everything we believe in. Not to mention the fact that China supplies the healthcare for the workers. Behringer is not burdened with any medical insurance costs.

And understand, this is held up as a paradigm of the best of the best of the China operations--the New Wave of Chinese enterprise in which offshore partners are encouraged to own their own operations. Chinese-owned and run operations are not subject to even this level of worker respect. Actual slave labor shops are being discovered daily by Chinese authorites--to their credit, but it shows how common the practice is.

So when you or I buy that dirt-cheap (and frankly pretty good) Chinese-built amp, whether we like it or not, we are voting with our wallets for a return to the robber baron days of textile mills, social engineering via companies' vertical integration of birth-to-death control of the worker, union-busting, and obviously an impossibly tilted playing field for the American worker who has fought for 150 years to make a living wage and get a little security and a piece of the American dream.

And us poor musician folk are whipsawed by simple economics to vote against our best national interests since we can't afford the $849+ American-built amps. To be fair, There are a very few companies like Carvin who still make $400 made-in-America gigable tube amps (not 5-watters), but they're a fast-dying breed.

Rich folks can vote with their wallets and buy that excellent made-in-America Fender Custom Shop amp, made by taxpaying workers with pensions, health plans, and a living wage. Poor Walmartians like me get herded up and led to the discount rack to buy that new $399 50-watt Made in China tube combo. We just have to resist the urge to look inside and see the "Help I'm a political prisoner!" note stuffed into the voice coil baffle.


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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:23 pm
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I keep giving you guys economics lessons, but you continue to quote emotions, rather than facts. What, if we as americans said that we will buy no goods that are not produced by high priced semi-skilled american labor, instead of the products we now have availlable? What would be the result of these actions? Would the chinese start paying their labor more money? Would the rest of the world enjoy even lower prices as the US market is not purchasing the overabundance now availlable? When the market stabillizes, would the chinese worker be out of work, and go back to his subsistence work, and make less than he currently does? Will there be any more custom shop Fenders built? What about the employees of Fender who oversee the new products built overseas, or design the same, is there going to be a job for them? The economy of the United States does not depend on overpriced union labor, but on the majority of people who work for a fair wage. You may have noticed recently, that the automotive unions are not able to bleed the manufacturers, like they used to. Employees realize that in order to keep working, it is necessary to make a product that is competative in the WORLD market, and trying to force americans to subsidize benefits for themselves is not the way to stay employed. I realize that the majority of people who post on this forum are musicians, and therefore idealogs, but I tried to teach my children that nobody owes them a living, and you compete with everyone else for your lot in life. You must excell in what you do, to stand above the rest, and be noticed by the people who you work for. Don't be surprised that the chinese workers are doing the same thing. I suppose in a few years, the musicians there will be complaining that their amp is being made in sri-lanka, and not in china. Who's fault will it be then?


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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:09 am
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Aspiring Musician
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Fact: American product prices must absorb worker health care costs. Their overseas competition does not. GM cars have $1200 in medical coverage costs built into each car. Toyotas have zero.

Fact: The American labor movement has sacrificed thousands of lives of men, women and children to earn the US worker decent conditions, a living wage, job security and a pension. These are conditions designed to raise the American worker above the oppressive Dickensian fourth world sweat shop gulag so revered above.

Fact: The laissez-faire predatory capitalism touted above is all about union-busting, undercutting American values and producing a cutthroat lowest-common-denominator labor environment in which American workers must conform to the same brutal and oppressive conditions America extricated itself from back in the days of the mills and the mining town near-slave conditions. Do we want to sell the American Dream off to the Chinese Communists the way we've sold off our mortgages and securities to them?

Fact: Trickle down/supply side voodoo economics/trust the Boss doesn't work. Reagan proved that.

Fact: If the American worker is to retain any of the safety standards, the economic protections, the basic human rights that they used to have just a few years ago, we can't pit workers making pennies a day living in squalor in communal work camps (that make our old milltowns look like swank resorts) under a dictatorial government directly against Americans trying live a decent life. Unless we want to subject them to the same conditions.

Fact: This great "benefit" of the cheap Chinese amps is mostly a "benefit" to the profit margins of large corporations. We are currently experiencing the highest discrepancy between the wealthy and wage-earners since the Gilded Age. That cheap $400 amp should really be $300, the extra hundred went into $30 million dollar bonuses to executives.

Fact: We can have American workers living in the Age of Dickens with Bill Cratchits and Tiny Tims, or we can have strong unions which protect our workers and help them live like human beings.

Fact: Expecting poor musicians barely eking out a living to use their non-existent financial power to sway the issue one way or the other is specious and irrelevant. We don't have a choice, we must buy the cheapest product available.

Fact: The change must come from elsewhere, a coordinated effort to protect all Americans from the predatory unregulated capitalism which desires only two things: reducing American workers to a life of efficient labor camps and supplication seen in all our Asian competitors, and maximizing profits so the elite may reap more untold and obscene wealth. They already have the last part. Lets fight to keep the first part from happening.


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