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Post subject: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:38 am
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Hey everyone,

I recently acquired a Hot Rod Deville 212 (USA made). Shortly after I started using it, it totally crapped out. I took it in for service and they told me that I had blown 6 capacitors. He said that I did something that it didn't like apparently.

After talking for a bit, I mentioned that I run an extension 2x12 cab with it (wired at 4 Ohms). He said that it could have been an Ohm mismatch with the cab. Now, I also have an identical Deville 212 (Mexi) that I have been running with the cabinet for years without any issues.

All of the research I have done looking at the manuals for these amps says that the external speaker jack required a 4 Ohm load.

Now I am afraid to use the cabinet with this amp for fear of blowing the capacitors again. The service guy was not really able to offer any other reasons for all of the capacitors blowing at the same time.

Can anyone shed any light on this?


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:28 am
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"I took it in for service and they told me that I had blown 6 capacitors. " :lol:

The guy who say that lie. You can't blow 6 caps.

Hot Rod Deville 2 X 12 can use a 4 ohms ext cab
Hot Rod Deville 4 X 14 can use a 8 ohms ext cab

On a second amp, always check the fuse, seller may put a too powerful fuse and the amp is not protected


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:17 am
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Thanks, I will check on that.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:37 pm
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Take to a different guy, one that isn’t full of $hit.

An impedance mismatch within a 2 to 1 ratio, will not cause any problems either.

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:03 pm
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Yeah, I will check with a different shop.

The one I took it to is highly regarded in LA, so I am not sure what their deal is.

What would cause all of these capacitors to go bad all at once?


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:03 pm
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There could be 6 if some of the bias caps were blown as well.
Plugging it into 220 would blow them in a hurry.
I hope you got a good deal on it...


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:59 pm
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Pow_Nebula wrote:
Hey everyone,

I recently acquired a Hot Rod Deville 212 (USA made). Shortly after I started using it, it totally crapped out. I took it in for service and they told me that I had blown 6 capacitors. He said that I did something that it didn't like apparently. etc..........

Can anyone shed any light on this?



It's a "made in the USA" so it's a mid to late 90s HRDeville. It needed a cap job, & you being the last owner just got stuck with it :wink: . No biggy, standard tune-up with all amps over 15yrs old. While you are at it...... demand !!!! ... whoever to replace the big ceramic resistors at R78 & R79 even if they think they are good. The first few years HRDs rolled off the assembly line those resistors had serious quality issues. Wasn't Fender's fault. Fender wasn't aware the supplier's QT was suspect until units started to fail in the field about 2-3 yrs later. Last... have the tech go over all the major points (Ribbons, etc) checking for cold welds & cracked welds Have him touch up any solder joint that looks fishy. While you're at it, have the tech swap out those plastic jacks, nothing really wrong with them, but they will wear out over time. .. you could also have him mode the Drive channel to make it a full-service amp.... Or another great option is to have him disconnect the Drive and make it another clean channel and make the Presence knob a master volume. That way you can dime one of channels to get the big bottle 6l6gc overdrive tone. (no one ever does this mod and it might be the best one!!!)

Shouldn't charge you more than $200-250 for everything. (However, I can see some not wanting to spend that kind of money on a used HRDeville that 20+yrs old.)

Having gigged a 2001 HRDeluxe for many years, I think they are a great amp. I sold it. Never had a problem with mine except to have it re-capped (that's when I had the two clean channel with MV mod done) Sold it and got another HRDeluxe III in a trade and had the Drive Channel modded on that.. (love that one just as much as 2001)

FYI the later MIM HRDs are made better than the American ones. The manufacturing process in Mexico, after making HRDs for 20+yrs have gotten pretty good at assembly those.

With Modern PCB Fenders, I live by the following.... (hence have little issues)

Due to the fragile nature of the PCB, oxidization, traces lifting whatever....

*Never move the amp while hot ( I let it cool down to room temp)

*Never expose the amp to extreme temperature changes (If its cold out, I warm the car up before transport, if the amp is cold I let it warm up to room temp before I turn it on etc)

*Treat the amp like its an expensive laptop computer. (I Don't bang it around coming into the bar/hall, or throw it the trunk, or jerk on the cables, set it where it will get kicked on stage or fall off the stage, etc, )

Aside from a normal recapping on the 2001 HRDeluxe, I haven't had an issue with a Modern Fender. I currently have two in my stable of with my vintage Fenders.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:30 pm
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There is nothing wrong with the ceramic resistors themselves, not sure where that bs comes from.

In fact, the Devilles did not have the power supply issues as experienced in the HRDlx, and BDRI, because the Devilles had a lower power supply voltage, so they didn't generate as much heat. The issue with some of these HRDlx and BDRI amps, is that the heat generated by the ceramic resistors and zeners in the +/- 16 volt power supply, would cause solder joints to fail.

So for the Devilles, no worry about the ceramic resistors at all.

The move to Mexico didn’t change the amp much at all, they still used the exact same components, the exact same circuit board, etc. Since they were exactly the same, the quality of the MIM amps could not be any better than the MIA versions. I have a ‘98 HRDlx, MIA, and those ceramic resistors were raised off of the circuit board when it was built, no issues with mine some 20 years on.

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:51 am
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The early amps used 330 ohm 5 watt resistors. Later versions use 470 ohm. Both will overheat the board given enough hours. Normal use won't cook too much. It's those nights when you fall asleep over your guitar and wake up the next morning with your rig still running. That's long enough to cook the board.
The circuit splits the regulation heat between the resistors and the zener diodes. Whether 330 or 470, the power dissipation of the circuit is constant. A 470 will produce more heat, lowering the temperature of the zener.
Both transfer their heat to the board to be dissipated on the bottom traces, cooking the fiberglass board.
So it needs a better way to get rid of that heat. First thing I do is to scrape away the plastic coating from the traces around the zeners and resistors. Then tin them to become effective heat radiators.
Then I take two 1000 ohm resistors. Glue them together with silicone and connect in parallel to make a 500 ohm 10 watt resistor. Install and glue down with more silicone. Then glue the pairs together. This setup will dissipate more of the heat on the topside and reduce heating of the traces on the bottom.

As to the care and handling of your amp... In another lifetime, when I worked for the War Machine, we did enviromental testing of our military products. Hot, cold,, mold, vibration, shock, EMI, etc.
The shock test was to drop 100lbs on a 10 foot horizontal arm to a block that the unit under test was attached to. It was supposed tosimulate a torpedo hitting a ship.
The vibration test was a similar table connected to a motor with a out of balance weight on it, spinning 1000rpm. It had to last 24 hours.
We had almost no failures in the shock test. Occasionally, it broke a spot weld or a transformer mount. The vibration test was a different story. We had many unanticipated failures, electronic and mechanical on the vibration table. In most cases, we had to change away from silicone potting to epoxy potting to pass the tests.
So when I look at a guitar amp, the biggest reliability issue I see is that the whole thing is hooked up to a vibration table; the speaker. So I tell players that are concerned about how to take good care of their amp, "Don't play it. That's the worst thing you can do to it." The speaker vibrations shake the amp to its core in a way that a tumble down the stairs doesn't.
That is why Vintage manufacturers used to mount tubes in rubber grommets. Ampeg mounted the chassis in rubber suspension. The speaker is the amps worst enemy. That is why they built head, speaker pairs: to reduce vibration from the speaker. These days, that cost too much, I guess.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:12 am
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The SVT and V series guitar amps were indestructible.

But they weighed a ton and were expensive. Shudder to think how much that would cost today. Adjusted for inflation, about the same as back in the day, but I couldn't afford them back then and can't today.

Modern amps have been cut to bare bones margins of ruggedness. But that margin is sufficient for most purposes short of abuse, and they're cheap. In the sense that I only have to work half as many hours to buy one.

For rugged touring, a flight case is even better than Ampeg's approach. Saves cost for the weekend warrior who doesn't need it, provides better protection for those who do need it.

And yeah, combo amps shake the hell out of the electronics. But Ampeg's overkill just gave a slight reliability advantage. And a head with a cushion under it beats that reliability, for those who are willing to pay (cost or convenience) for it.
------------------------
We have more options at lower costs than ever before. A lot of it's crap, but there was plenty of crap way back when. A lot of it's disposable, but it's priced accordingly.
----------------------
Many people treasure finely crafted Swiss mechanical watches. I appreciate that they're the pinnacle of craftsmanship, that they transcend simply keeping time. Pieces of art, not just timepieces.

They're impressive, but what strikes me as miraculous is that you can walk into a dollar store and get a piece of plastic and sand that's an order of magnitude more accurate.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:41 am
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None of that was particularly about any of the Hot Rods. In their respective catagories they're mid-level. Not the worst, not the best.

I think Leo would have embraced the modern "no more rugged than it absolutely needs to be" philosophy. He used heavy welded steel chassis' because he didn't have finite element analysis to tell him where it needed to be strong, and where it didn't need to be.

I'm sure he'd love machines that can stuff components into hundreds of thousands of boards.

And he'd certainly love making them more affordable.

I do think he'd want them to be the best cheap amps though, and might be disappointed by most of the recent amps.
---------------------
Then again, all those claims about "the best selling series of tube amps in history"? Maybe great Leo's ghost wholeheartedly approves.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:14 am
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TimsAudio wrote:
The early amps used 330 ohm 5 watt resistors. Later versions use 470 ohm. Both will overheat the board given enough hours. Normal use won't cook too much. It's those nights when you fall asleep over your guitar and wake up the next morning with your rig still running. That's long enough to cook the board.
The circuit splits the regulation heat between the resistors and the zener diodes. Whether 330 or 470, the power dissipation of the circuit is constant. A 470 will produce more heat, lowering the temperature of the zener.......


Negative! The HRDlx has always used 470 ohm resistors, and the Devilles have always used 330 ohm resistors, there has not been a change. If you change the 470 ohm resistors in a HRDlx to 330 ohm, heat will increase in the entire circuit, both the resistors and zeners, period, it is a bad idea to do so. The best solution is to raise the resistors off of the circuit board, which prevents the heat from damaging the circuit board/traces/solder joints.

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:34 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the ceramic resistors themselves, not sure where that bs comes from.

In fact, the Devilles did not have the power supply issues as experienced in the HRDlx, and BDRI, because the Devilles had a lower power supply voltage, so they didn't generate as much heat. The issue with some of these HRDlx and BDRI amps, is that the heat generated by the ceramic resistors and zeners in the +/- 16 volt power supply, would cause solder joints to fail.

So for the Devilles, no worry about the ceramic resistors at all.

The move to Mexico didn’t change the amp much at all, they still used the exact same components, the exact same circuit board, etc. Since they were exactly the same, the quality of the MIM amps could not be any better than the MIA versions. I have a ‘98 HRDlx, MIA, and those ceramic resistors were raised off of the circuit board when it was built, no issues with mine some 20 years on.


Where to start ...

As a Materials Manager for a tier 1 supplier.

I will first humbly ask "So only the Hot Rod Deluxe suffered from the channel switching defect?" No.... I believe it was also the Devilles. I believe the R78 and R79 Ceramic wound resistors are the causes of that.... correct?. am I wrong? (if not then regardless of the value those resistors they were defective) Knowing a wee bit about electrical components and PCBs, to include sourcing, I'm almost positive the mounting the ceramic wire wound resistors off the board is not to prevent failure of the resistor, but to ensure if it does fail, damage to the PCB is kept to a min. (pretty sure that correction was made by the design engineer of the PCB... who by the way Fender outsources. I'm going to assume it's Singapore's Flex LTD because they lead the industry in manufacturing PCBs globally.) Could be wrong on the last... don't quote me on that

Back in the mid-90s, I was working in the medical field sourcing electrical components, the company I worked for had a huge recall, and the leading cause was traced back to a bogus supplier (still in business by the way) they supplied us with counterfeit parts. On the documentation which listed other manufacturers who were also supplied by the same bogus supplier was Fender FMIC (Supplier was being quarantined industry-wide)

All indicators point to those Ceramic Wire wound resistors. Why else raise both R78 & R79 off the PCB on both models (i.e. The Deluxe and the Deville) if it wasn't the ceramic wire wound resistors? The design change IMHO is the tell-all...


Moving on...


Let's talk about improvements to the manufacturing process. We in Manufacturing like to call it Continuous Improvement Planning. CIP

I'll ask you another question "So Manufacturing Engineers and Quality Engineers and Supply Chain managers (Senior Buyers etc) at Fender don't work on continuously improving their manufacturing process' to improve output and quality?"


??

Assembly line systems i.e Tooling, MIS, Line Process/subassemblies, etc are always being reavailed by the manufacturer. Designs are improved or design flaws corrected (I can tell you there was a difference between my 2001 HRDeluxe and my HRDeluxe III on how it was assembled. The HRD III had the leads dressed, had better insulation where needed and better traces on the PCBs. 20 yrs+ the HRDs have been assembled at Ensenada. Quality Engineers, working on the HRDs assembly have indeed improved the QT inspection process on the line, to include inspection of the PCBs being shipped in from the supplier. (the RI process)

So what Manufacturing facility made or makes a better HRD?


The USA Corona plant, that made HRDs for no more than a couple of years?

Or... The Ensenada plant in Mexico, whos been manufacturing HRDS for 20+yrs. (improving tooling, improving the line assembly process, improving better QT inspections, better controls on raw materials/ better sourcing of parts.


*** let me point out that I think we are trying to say the same thing & just drawing a difference in our message... which (don't want to put words in your mouth) ... is that the HRDs are a good amp if maintained.


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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:51 pm
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It was indeed only the HRDlx and BDRI amps that had the channel switching, reverb, and other issues associated with the +/- 16 volt supply. The issue was not the resistors themselves, but the heat that they generated, which caused solder joints to fail, and traces to lift. The Devilles had no such issues, due to a different supply, namely a lower voltage to that supply. The only design change that helped the issues was that the version III HRDlx and BDRI amps got thicker circuit boards, to better handle the heat from the resistors, but the spec for the resistors and supply circuit remained unchanged.

The move to Mexico, around 2001, call it version II of the amps, nothing changed as far as components or circuitry, so there was no improvement to the amps by simply moving production to another plant. The first major improvements came with the version III, around 2007, thicker circuit boards, some other minor circuit revisions. But, by then the infamous RoHS solder was introduced, so that was definitely a step backwards, and not an improvement. Then the version IV had some other circuit changes, some would say were improvements, others would say not so much improvements, but changes nonetheless. So as far as the thicker circuit boards, that was an improvement, so for version III, yes the Mexican amps were better in that respect. I wouldn’t agree with a general statement that the MIM amps are better than the MIA though, especially since they now have that stupid RoHS solder.

Yes, the HRDlx amps are great, and still my favorite. :D

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Post subject: Re: Hot Rod Deville 2/12 Capacitor Issue
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:00 am
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Shimmi, your right. After looking over my notes, 330 is in the DeVille. But my notes also indicate burned traces on them as well.
The difference in voltage is not enough to solve the heating problem. Between the resistor and the zener, they are dissipating only about 2 watts of heat, with the capability of 10 watts. Its not enough to burn in a short time, but left on to cook for days is what does it. I don't see why they don't make the solder pads larger there to dissipate the heat more effectively.

Pcal, you're right. Fmic and other companies struggled to get fakes out of the supply chain for years. But the fakes were expensive parts, not resistors.
They would put a small capacitor in a bigger can or put a tiny transistor onto a much larger case. But these were $5 parts, not 50 cent resistors.
For all those 5watt resistors I resoldered or replaced, not one was defective, it was always the solder, or in a couple cases, vibrational failure of the lead if it wasn't glued down to the board well.


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