It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:07 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Post subject: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:04 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 4
Hi Everyone, hopefully this is the right forum here to post this. I wanted to share my journey I'm currently having getting my 5150 III Combo issues sorted out with Fender.

First, some background. I'm not new to 5150 amps, I own a few including the original 5150. Yes, they are noisy and meant to be noisy, within reason. I'd be worried if a 5150III was completely quiet at any gain/volume level, lol. So this is not a newb issue.

Second, I currently own a 5150, 5150III Combo and the new 5150III SLS 50 watt head. My other two amps don't have any of the issues you'll hear below. BTW, the 5150III SLS 50 watt is excellent especially with the concentric knobs/channel 1/2 split.

The issues with the combo slowly developed over a period of 2 years. I bought the combo new in 2015. As you'll hear in the videos below, it's a bit of a mess. It doesn't matter what guitars I have plugged into it: single coil/humbucker, doesn't matter what pedals I have. Its' not the guitars, its the amp. Its not the power, location (home, gig, etc.) doesn't matter.

Normally I use either an MXR Noise Gate in the effects loop (I used this with my 5150 III SL6 Head) to eliminate any noise especially at high levels. Works perfectly. On the combo, it doesn't do anything, literally does nothing at all to quiet what you'll hear below. I used a G-String II. It works until I start playing, once I start playing it can't control the issues below.

My journey so far. I contacted Fender. The first reaction was "the noise is normal on these amps, that's what EVH wants". Yep, I get what EVH designed it to do, but this ain't it, lol. I was advised to take it to a authorized tech. I did. The tech first contacted Fender to get authorization, which he did, and then dug into it. He found issues in the power supply which he cannot fix since I guess it's all integrated with the circuit board. He also found two microphonic power tubes, which he replaced, but it did nothing to solve the noise issue. Fender advised him that the noise is normal........to which the tech was flabbergasted. Not only that, but since the Fender rep deemed there was no issue, I had to pay for the labor charges, so I'm out $200.

I contacted Fender customer service. Told another rep what's going on and his response was "The noise is normal....", I insisted this is NOT normal. He was helpful though and got me to talk with a Fender engineer. The engineer too at first said "The noise is normal".... and asked me to send him a video of the issue. So I did.

He watched the videos and confirmed this was NOT normal, at all. He ruled out the channel popping when switching between channels as 'normal' but everything else was problematic. They advised me to bring it to a gold-certified service center. I did, yesterday, now waiting to hear back. The tech at the service center also watched the videos and confirmed this was not normal.

The videos are:
https://youtu.be/_FQRFMVXPME
https://youtu.be/EbFIHv4jnxI

I'm hopeful Fender can resolve this soon.
Thanks.


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:08 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:46 pm
Posts: 2
im having issues with my 5150 iii 1x12 combo... this is my second amp. first one died during the 45 money back period at GC. I decided to go with EVH again hoping this was a solitary issue...

A year to date, i'm having the same issues again... it seems like there's a bad line of combos that were released..
now they released an updated version of this combo...

i'm hoping for a positive resolution with Fender, because this is not what i expect from a $1300 amplifier!


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:06 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:31 am
Posts: 14045
Location: Province de Québec, Canada
I'll follow.


Last edited by stratele52 on Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:49 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:46 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: ʞɹo⅄ ʍǝN
Yeah sounds totally normal. "EVH wants it that way". :roll: That's some Grade A customer service right there.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:02 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
If a noise gate in the loop doesn't do anything, that at least narrows it down somewhat. The noise must be generated somewhere after the loop. The phase inverter or the power amp. (Which also includes the power supply for those sections of the circuit.)

Did the tech who found problems with the power supply give you any details of what he found? It's always a good idea to get a tech to give you a written explanation of what he found. Or to write down exactly what he says to you.

I only watched the second vid. Clearly something is wrong with that amp. But you used the word "hum" several times. If you said that while trying to describe the noise to Fender, it's understandable that their initial response was "hiss and hum are normal for that amp".

What I heard was "buzz" (along with the normal hiss and hum).
-----------------------

"Hum" and "buzz" are examples of onomatopoeia -- words that mimic sounds.

Say "hummmmmmmmmmm".

Now say "buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".

The "mmmmm" sound comes from your throat. You close your lips to make that sound.

The "zzzzzzzzzzzz" sound comes from the front of your mouth. You have to have your lips open to make that sound.

Sorry, this is a frequent frustration of mine on forums. Many/most people use hum/buzz interchangeably but they're not at all the same thing and they indicate different problems.

Hum is generally a filter cap problem or a tube problem (or a side consequence of designing an amp to have a looser, "vintage" response vs a tighter, "modern" feel).

Buzz is generally a power supply problem or an external interference problem. (Hence the question about what exactly that one tech said about the power supply.)


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:20 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
ghost_of_strings wrote:
Yeah sounds totally normal. "EVH wants it that way". :roll: That's some Grade A customer service right there.


Some hiss and hum is normal for that amp, and yes it's because Edward likes a looser, "old school" high gain tone. He doesn't want the tightness of a Mesa, Soldano, Rivera, Randall.

I'm sure Fender reps frequently get questions from people who expect an EVH to be as quiet as a Triple Rec or SLO. And especially if verbally told "it hums" they're going to say "that's normal".

As soon as they saw the vids they said "there's something wrong".


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:35 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:56 am
Posts: 1677
Location: Coastal Bend, Tx.
I know nothing of this amp, but it's interesting and well captured in the video's. Any Fender rep/tech that saw or heard that and said it was normal, is likely a company yes-man that's a standard policy reply for I don't know what it's supposed to sound like.
Out of curiosity, does it have the same issue's when on low power setting?


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:49 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:25 pm
Posts: 1023
First thing to do is tighten all the 1/4" jack nuts. Even the plastic ones have a pointy tang on the front to make a chassis connection. If they get just a little loose, it might cause a shielding problem.
This amp uses a separate headphone amplifier circuit and mutes the phase inverter and power tubes. Simply plugging in headphones will tell you if the problem is the preamp or main amp circuits.
If you have addressed noisy tube problems, the description of it slowly getting worse, becoming microphonic, and randomly changing symptoms, points to bad solder. The lead-free solder used in modern amps doesn't bond to circuit boards very well and is a common source of problems that don't fit with other component or connection problems.
You can tear your hair out trying to pinpoint the problem but the best strategy is to resolder the entire amp. That will take care of future failures as well.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:50 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:46 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: ʞɹo⅄ ʍǝN
strayedstrater wrote:
Some hiss and hum is normal for that amp, and yes it's because Edward likes a looser, "old school" high gain tone.

what I hear on those recordings is most certainly not a normal hiss and hum for any amp. And the fact that Fender staff would go out on a limb and say "oh yeah that's normal" without even hearing it?

Can you imagine a car mechanic doing that? "oh yeah well you know lady, this thing has a 6 cylinder engine so it you can't expect it to be silent". Meanwhile her brake pads have worn all the way down and making a grinding sound.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:20 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:50 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: Denver, CO, USA
ghost_of_strings wrote:
strayedstrater wrote:
Some hiss and hum is normal for that amp, and yes it's because Edward likes a looser, "old school" high gain tone.

what I hear on those recordings is most certainly not a normal hiss and hum for any amp. And the fact that Fender staff would go out on a limb and say "oh yeah that's normal" without even hearing it?

Can you imagine a car mechanic doing that? "oh yeah well you know lady, this thing has a 6 cylinder engine so it you can't expect it to be silent". Meanwhile her brake pads have worn all the way down and making a grinding sound.


The reps who said "it's normal" were the ones who only heard a verbal description.

Everyone from Fender who was given the video immediately agreed that there's a problem with that amp.
----------------
While I can understand people who haven't heard that particular amp saying "those amps normally make more noise than most other amps", I'm very disturbed that Fender initially authorized a warranty repair, then denied it was covered by warranty and made the customer pay for work that didn't even fix the obviously real problem.

I'd raise holy hell about that. Send the vids, copies of the bill and copies of all written documentation to Fender and demand my repair money back.

And then demand they fix the amp ASAP, even if it involves replacing the power supply circuit board.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:52 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 4
Update:

First thanks for the feedback. Let me state that Fender Customer Service has been great to deal with, I have no issues with them specifically and I've come to learn that they're information was only as good as what the first technician was telling them so I'll leave it at that. But I found that persistence is key. Fender hears "the amp is noisy" regularly especially from customers that are used to quiet amps which the 5150 is not. if you have a completely quiet (at all levels) 5150 III then you have found a rare pink unicorn. Hum and hiss are normal for these amps to a degree. In my case, the rep asked me to record the issues and I was fortunate to have a rep that went directly to the engineers with the recordings. But persistence is key. (And I will post what I did to engage the customer service rep later. :-) )

So, Service Center #2...contacted me after dropping it off and said based on their normal testing they can't find the issues.....I asked them what the test entailed. Then I asked them to set the Gain on CH2 to 6 O' Clock or CH3 to the 2 O 'Clock position, Volume at 3 )' Clock and Power Level at 100% and try again....

(Yes I was hitting my head against a wall, lol) but they heard the problem after that.

The service center dug into the amp and found an issue with the voltage regulator, voltage was dropped below 118v for some reason. They replaced the regulator and the major issues in Vid 2 should be resolved. I'll find out Friday when I go pick it up. I'll get details on what the issue was and what was done. They also found a couple more micro-phonic tubes.

The channel popping, according to the engineers is normal, which can't be as it doesn't happen on my other 5150 III amps. But I'm not going to cry over that.

The fact that both techs zero'd in on the power supply and one was able to replace the regulator is good.

And, FWIW, Fender reimbursed me (check is in the mail :-)) for having to pay the other tech which was not supposed to happen.

I'll post more detail info as I get it. But looking forward to getting this beast back tomorrow.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:00 am
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:21 pm
Posts: 393
Location: Oklahoma
vipertony wrote:
Update:

First thanks for the feedback. Let me state that Fender Customer Service has been great to deal with, I have no issues with them specifically and I've come to learn that they're information was only as good as what the first technician was telling them so I'll leave it at that. But I found that persistence is key. Fender hears "the amp is noisy" regularly especially from customers that are used to quiet amps which the 5150 is not. if you have a completely quiet (at all levels) 5150 III then you have found a rare pink unicorn. Hum and hiss are normal for these amps to a degree. In my case, the rep asked me to record the issues and I was fortunate to have a rep that went directly to the engineers with the recordings. But persistence is key. (And I will post what I did to engage the customer service rep later. :-) )

So, Service Center #2...contacted me after dropping it off and said based on their normal testing they can't find the issues.....I asked them what the test entailed. Then I asked them to set the Gain on CH2 to 6 O' Clock or CH3 to the 2 O 'Clock position, Volume at 3 )' Clock and Power Level at 100% and try again....

(Yes I was hitting my head against a wall, lol) but they heard the problem after that.

The service center dug into the amp and found an issue with the voltage regulator, voltage was dropped below 118v for some reason. They replaced the regulator and the major issues in Vid 2 should be resolved. I'll find out Friday when I go pick it up. I'll get details on what the issue was and what was done. They also found a couple more micro-phonic tubes.

The channel popping, according to the engineers is normal, which can't be as it doesn't happen on my other 5150 III amps. But I'm not going to cry over that.

The fact that both techs zero'd in on the power supply and one was able to replace the regulator is good.

And, FWIW, Fender reimbursed me (check is in the mail :-)) for having to pay the other tech which was not supposed to happen.

I'll post more detail info as I get it. But looking forward to getting this beast back tomorrow.
It's good to know that Fender is working with you about this. Sounds very frustrating. The auto mechanic analogy is perfect.

I bought a brand new TRRI 4 years ago and right out of the box, the amp was hissy and noisy with nothing plugged in. Having owned a 1966 Super Reverb years ago, I knew these amps are not supposed to be noisy. Lucky for me, I found the answer in theses forums and it was just a bad tube (V4). All is well.

Please follow up.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:23 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:25 pm
Posts: 1023
The regulator on the ic power supply is a common failure item. They are hardworking little guys. It would introduce hum into the op amp circuits as in the video.
A microphonic tube would cover the rest of the squealing issues. Lets hope that gets to the bottom of it.
A set of jj gold pin preamp tubes would lower overall hiss.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:44 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 4
Update: Unfortunately the hum is still there. Tech is going to replace the filter caps as there's nothing else to diagnose. Probably two weeks out from an update. Thanks.


Top
Profile
Post subject: Re: 5150 III Combo Issues
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:48 am
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 4
I apologize for not posting an update on this, I can't believe it's October already....time is flying by. I've had the amp back since the beginning of September. The tech ended up replacing the power supply, filter caps and both power tubes. The combo is much better now but still has issues. The tech is not entirely happy with as there's still noise that he can't get rid of. Prior to the fixes, no matter what I used as a noise gate ( MXR or G-String II) it did absolutely NOTHING to help suppress the banshee squealing, lol. Now, the MXR Smart Gate in the effects actually helps at low volumes but I can't use this combo live at higher volumes unfortunately. Fender has stopped communicating with me on this and my tech can't get anywhere with them at this point. Thanks.


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: