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Post subject: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:29 pm
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Hello,

I’m no guitarist, I’m a bass guy.

I’m trying to learn some stuff at the guitar. I’m a jazz/blues (more jazz) guy. What I’m after is a thick, smooth clean sound (not distortion, metal or the like).

For bass, when gigging I use various provided systems (even sometimes no amp, just my Ampeg preamp/DI) and at home for practice I have a wonderful Fender Rumble 100v3.

This amp is a gem, it is incredibly lightweight (weight for bass amps is a long and painful story) it output 100w, so for some little gigs (bars..) it fits the bill, the sound is very good and most of all, I can use it at home, even at very low volume (TV kind of) with a very correct sound.
On the top of that it has a very linear “normal” volume stuff, and doesn't have the classical Fender behavior : 0 = no sound, 0,1 blows the windows away.
It has all the in/out useful for practice (aux in/headphones/effects loop).. perfect.

It seems that the guitar equivalent of my beloved Rumble 100v3 is the Champion 40 (aside the fact the Champion 40 doesn't have an effects loop).

The Champion 40 is quite cheap, seems to have some issues (buzzing..) and for the same price of a new Champion 40, I’m offered a Deluxe 112 (sold state also). I know it’s a very different beast. But I see nothing but praise about it on the internets.. and the built quality seems higher.

My question is : the Deluxe been a very loud amp, much louder than the Champion 40, and considering that I’ll not (let's say not in this life, maybe in the next one..) gig with it, is it an amp that is usable at bedroom/tv/discussion level ?

Thanks in advance

Luc


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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:33 am
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"....is it an amp that is usable at bedroom/tv/discussion level ?..."

I don't understand your question.

All amps have a volume control , this is a 80 watts it is a very powerful amp , use volume.

For home use more than 5 watts is too powerful.


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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:33 am
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Thanks for your answer

You’re absolutely right, I might have been more specific.

There are two points that I’m considering

First point the volume button

All amps have a volume button, but all volume buttons have not been created equal.

Fender as a strange habit to use logarithmic potentiometers, with nearly all the setting range in the very beginning or the stuff, that leads to the following result : button on 0 => no sound and as soon as you touch slightly the button => all the full power.

It's no problem for a gigging amp, but it’s a real hassle for home use.

Fender don’t do that on all its products, for example, the bass amp Rumble 100v3 I use at home has a very classical volume potentiometer, that allows a very easy volume setting at home.

Second point, the sound

A tube amp requires some level of volume to produce a satisfactory sound. I tried some little tube amps (Blues Junior and so on) but at home volume the sound is quite sterile, not bad but nothing really specially interesting.
And if I am a gigging bassist I’m a bedroom guitarist only

Solid State amps are supposed to behave differently, so the other part of my question, is “will a Deluxe 112, powerful SS amp; produce a good sound a low volume level ?”

Luc


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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:59 am
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lstelie wrote:
Thanks for your answer

You’re absolutely right, I might have been more specific.

There are two points that I’m considering

First point the volume button

All amps have a volume button, but all volume buttons have not been created equal.

Fender as a strange habit to use logarithmic potentiometers, with nearly all the setting range in the very beginning or the stuff, that leads to the following result : button on 0 => no sound and as soon as you touch slightly the button => all the full power.

Wrong ; logarithmic pots increase their resistance on a curve. At the halfway point volume will still be moderate, but it will increase sharply as you keep turning up the volume. You talk about linear pot. Fender don't use these pot all the time, it is a case by case.
I don't know wich kind of volume pot in the Deluxe 112. Look to be linear (B) but schematic is not clear.


Fender don’t do that on all its products, for example, the bass amp Rumble 100v3 I use at home has a very classical volume potentiometer, that allows a very easy volume setting at home.

Second point, the sound

A tube amp requires some level of volume to produce a satisfactory sound. I tried some little tube amps (Blues Junior and so on) but at home volume the sound is quite sterile, not bad but nothing really specially interesting.
And if I am a gigging bassist I’m a bedroom guitarist only

It is a case by case, sometimes yes , sometimes no

Solid State amps are supposed to behave differently, so the other part of my question, is “will a Deluxe 112, powerful SS amp; produce a good sound a low volume level ?”

Yes

Luc


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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:22 am
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You're a jazz player.
You’re looking for a clean, undistorted tone.
You happen to be in luck.
Guitar amps are cleaner when the volume is low.


From my perspective, it seems the first thing you need to do is more clearly define “bedroom level”.
There are situations where the walls are insulated and you live alone in an apartment and it is the neighbors who may complain.
Then there is the situation where the walls are paper thin and there’s a baby nursery in the next room and the little cherub can hear you picking your nose.

In the first situation almost any Fender amp will get low enough to practice.

In the second situation, even a headphone preamp might be too loud with the rattle of the strings.

You should try a few amps and try to imagine them in whatever situation will apply.

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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:07 am
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This SS Fender uses a volume control in an op amp feedback loop. Yes, it does work funny. For low volumes, it clamps the gain to a low level. Once you reach half volume, it it looses the NFB and pumps signal directly to the next stage.
It is jumpy and changes its gain structure with more volume.
A standard volume circuit takes the fixed gain of an amp stage and divides its output to send a lower voltage to the next stage.
The feedback volume circuit varies the gain of the op amp. So gain structure changes as the volume is increased.
This makes notes more dynamic as the volume goes up. While it may make it more versatile, that is a problem for gigging guitarists. The gain structure, that is, the ratio of peak to decay, shouldn't change in a live show.
The 112 also uses a feedback resistor in the speaker circuit to compensate for speaker errors. Like most feedback circuits, it works as a shock absorber. At low volumes, this doesn't do much.
Low volumes from a highly attenuated amp will always sound sterile. the harmonics that richen a guitar tone are comparatively low level compared with the fundamental. Low volumes leave these in the noise floor until the volume is raised.
A 5 watt amp can operate with less attenuation, so harmonics can be heard.

There is another approach you can try for a clean jazz sound. Plug your guitar into the Ampeg DI box then into the Power Amp input on the Deluxe.
It will have a lower gain structure for improved headroom and sustain. It also has clean tone controls that are better for jazz, country and acoustic guitar. I think you'll be surprised.


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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:19 am
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TimsAudio wrote:
This SS Fender uses a volume control in an op amp feedback loop. Yes, it does work funny. For low volumes, it clamps the gain to a low level. Once you reach half volume, it it looses the NFB and pumps signal directly to the next stage.
It is jumpy and changes its gain structure with more volume.
A standard volume circuit takes the fixed gain of an amp stage and divides its output to send a lower voltage to the next stage.
The feedback volume circuit varies the gain of the op amp. So gain structure changes as the volume is increased.
This makes notes more dynamic as the volume goes up. While it may make it more versatile, that is a problem for gigging guitarists. The gain structure, that is, the ratio of peak to decay, shouldn't change in a live show.
The 112 also uses a feedback resistor in the speaker circuit to compensate for speaker errors. Like most feedback circuits, it works as a shock absorber. At low volumes, this doesn't do much.
Low volumes from a highly attenuated amp will always sound sterile. the harmonics that richen a guitar tone are comparatively low level compared with the fundamental. Low volumes leave these in the noise floor until the volume is raised.
A 5 watt amp can operate with less attenuation, so harmonics can be heard.

There is another approach you can try for a clean jazz sound. Plug your guitar into the Ampeg DI box then into the Power Amp input on the Deluxe.
It will have a lower gain structure for improved headroom and sustain. It also has clean tone controls that are better for jazz, country and acoustic guitar. I think you'll be surprised.


Thanks a LOT !!!!

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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:59 am
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BMW-KTM wrote:
You're a jazz player.
You’re looking for a clean, undistorted tone.
You happen to be in luck.
Guitar amps are cleaner when the volume is low.


From my perspective, it seems the first thing you need to do is more clearly define “bedroom level”.
There are situations where the walls are insulated and you live alone in an apartment and it is the neighbors who may complain.
Then there is the situation where the walls are paper thin and there’s a baby nursery in the next room and the little cherub can hear you picking your nose.

In the first situation almost any Fender amp will get low enough to practice.

In the second situation, even a headphone preamp might be too loud with the rattle of the strings.

You should try a few amps and try to imagine them in whatever situation will apply.


Hello,

This are very good points.

In my view there are two axes to see that.

First, the one you describe : what is “bedroom level” ?
Second one is : what does your guitarist life looks like ?

Bedroom level for me is more or less TV level, meaning a level that allows me to play without the neighbors knocking at my door (I live in an apartment, not in a house)

The second point is perhaps more important in term of device choice.

I am a gigging bassist, I’ll never be a gigging guitarist.
That means that my guitarist life will be only in my living room, never in a rehearsal place , never in a gig place.

If I was a gigging guitarist, the answer to my question (that basically is “how to play/exercise at home without upsetting anyone ?”) would be very simple : use headphones ( I have a Mac and numerous software that work quite well) or any low power little “beginner” amplifier..

For a gigging (even it’s only rehearsal) guitarist, when working at home the goal is to get a sound. If it’s not a tremendous one, it’s not a huge problem, the real enjoyment lies during rehearsal and gigs. It's what I experience as a gigging bassist, with my Rumble 100v3 at home.
The sound I get when working my bass stuff is not to die for at low level, but its is ok (and to some extend great), and I compensate the frustration when I rehearse or gig, so it's no problem.

As i’m not a gigging guitarist and will likely never be, my goal is to get a good and pleasant “living room level” sound..

Saying in a other way, as my whole “guitarist life” will stand in my living room , I want to enjoy it (I'm a pervert.. I know).
I tried the headphones solution, of course it works, but its not very exciting.
I tried tube amp (a blues junior) with an attenuator.. but the resulting sound is nothing close to "exciting" (even 5watt is to much in an apartement). Its easy to get a clean sound, but difficult to get a fat, creamy, clean sound at living room level with a tube amp.

So I’m looking now at solid state amps, and I have an offer for a Deluxe 112, but my experience with Fender amps is that the volume button is highly sensitive (I was wrong naming it “logarithmic”).

Luc

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2009 New American Standard Precision Bass / OW
2010 New American Standard Jazz Bass / Sunburst
1996 USA Vintage Reissue 57 Stratocaster


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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:28 am
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Those old solid state Fenders are great. I have a Champion 110, a Princeton Chorus, and a Princeton 112 Plus. I upgraded the speakers in the Champion and the Princeton 112 to a Lil' Buddy and a Red, White, and Blues, respectively.

I never played the Deluxe 90, but I would imagine based on my experience with the other three that it would do fine at bedroom levels, especially if you're after a thick, smooth, jazzy tone. If someone is offering you a good deal, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger.

That said, I do spend more time playing the Champion 110 than the Princeton 112. It's a close call, but at low volumes I think the simpler circuit of the 25 watt Champion wins over the Princeton's 65 watts. If you open them up and look at the circuit board, you can see a bunch more op amps and other circuitry in the bigger amp.

But there are times the 12" speaker is more fun, and the effects loop would be useful if you have that Ampeg preamp you want to try out.


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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:23 am
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I think you should investigate some of the higher end phone preamps. As you’ve pointed out, many are not very exciting but there may be some better ones that don’t leave you wanting as much. I don’t live in that world but I do pay attention when this question comes up. I seem to recall a unit called Palmer was given fairly glowing commendations recently. The quality and character of the phones will also come into play.

If you are 100% confident that you will never gig or jam or in any way play with others then there really is no point in paying for an amp, not when you have noise concerns anyway ... my opinion.

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Post subject: Re: Is a Deluxe 112 (ss) usable at bedroom level ?
Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:57 pm
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Yeah dont get some weird overpriced phone gizmo. A ss fender is cheaper and more fun. Go for a mustang gt if size and volume are really that critical. Or step up and just use the volume knob on the deluxe 90.


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