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Post subject: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:53 am
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I think this topic would go in this area. I was recently gifted a '65 Re-Issue Twin Reverb amp. My dad had a pre-CBS Fender Twin Reverb when I was a kid and I remember how, inexplicably to my kid mind, it would start distorting without any kind of effects being plugged in. I now know...that was tube overdrive.

Now I'm 50+ and I've been given this great tube amp...but cranking the volume to get the overdrive is not practical at all in my current station in life (wife, neighbors, landlord...all oblivious to the wonder and magic of a high-decibel Jimmy Page wannabe at 6pm to midnight). So I'm looking at overdrive pedals.

As I read about them on these discussion boards, there seems to be some vagueness as to whether the pedal is emulating an overdriven sound...or if it is actually overdriving the tubes while tempering the volume. Does the later even exist? Is there such a pedal that overdrives the tubes (so you have to use them with a tube amp) while keeping the volume manageable...since the amp (like the Fender Twin Reverb) doesn't have a master volume control?


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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:25 pm
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billg3436 wrote:
Is there such a pedal that overdrives the tubes (so you have to use them with a tube amp) while keeping the volume manageable...since the amp (like the Fender Twin Reverb) doesn't have a master volume control?


No.
In order to overdrive the tubes (pre-amp or power amp), you need to pummel them with a large signal, which translates into loud volume.

The way a master-volume amp works is to pummel the pre-amp tubes, then insert another volume control *after* that happens. The resulting signal gets sent to the power tubes, which are then *not* overdriven.

There are many who insist that it only "sounds good" when the power tubes are being overdriven, along with the pre-amp. They are mostly ill-informed.

A cranked 1-watt amp with *one* tube will still be too loud to have a conversation.

Which is why we buy pedals. And master-volume amps. Or attenuators.


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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:40 pm
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evets618 wrote:
billg3436 wrote:
Is there such a pedal that overdrives the tubes (so you have to use them with a tube amp) while keeping the volume manageable...since the amp (like the Fender Twin Reverb) doesn't have a master volume control?


No.
In order to overdrive the tubes (pre-amp or power amp), you need to pummel them with a large signal, which translates into loud volume.

The way a master-volume amp works is to pummel the pre-amp tubes, then insert another volume control *after* that happens. The resulting signal gets sent to the power tubes, which are then *not* overdriven.

There are many who insist that it only "sounds good" when the power tubes are being overdriven, along with the pre-amp. They are mostly ill-informed.

A cranked 1-watt amp with *one* tube will still be too loud to have a conversation.

Which is why we buy pedals. And master-volume amps. Or attenuators.


Correct.

For a hot, compressed tone the pre-amp needs to be hit pretty hard for that to occur. That's the purpose of an OD pedal -- to hike the incoming amplitude of the input signal to the point that the first gain stage is driven into saturation. As that signal cascades along through the pre-amp, the effect is logarithmically enhanced. When the peak-to-peak voltage approaches (or exceeds) the design limits of the tubes, that's when the magic occurs.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:24 am
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Yup. Simulated waveform to closely mimic certain OD and harmonics.


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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:26 pm
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I am so very glad this is not one of those forums where people insist an OD pedal is only for pushing the front end of an amp and does not in and of itself provide distortion but only causes the amp to distort.
Those people are deluded.
And very frustrating to discuss things with.
That line of thinking wasn't even completely true back in the day when people did use them to push amps.
OD pedals have always provided an overdriven type of signal to the amp.
Whether you push the amp with it or not, the pedal still sounds like overdrive.
I don't know where people get their crazy ideas.

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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:24 am
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There are basically three major types of drive pedals:

- Boost pedals, which overdrive the input tubes (or comparable circuitry) of the amp.
- Drive pedals where the compressed/boosted signal from the gain section is clipped and/or harmonic distorted in the pedal itself. Then the volume knob attenuates the output volume so it won't distort again.
- Drive pedals that distort the signal programmatically, not through clipping. These are most often digital. Often, gain and volume are applied at the end, and doesn't affect the distortion itself.

The first two types are generally responsive to the volume knob on the guitar. The latter can be, but usually distorts no matter how loud the guitar signal is.

Typically, you'll find both volume and gain knobs on all three (although the first type can work fine with just a gain knob, and the last one without either), and often assorted other controls like distortion, eq, wet/dry mix or other.


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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:51 pm
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I've personally never met a boost pedal of any kind that is actually truly clean and completely free of clipping.
I always hear just a little bit of clipping even with the drive set to minimum.
I never tried a RangeMaster or one of its many clones though.
I never really understood the need for a treble booster.

The EP Booster I bought recently seems to be the closest thing to a true clean boost I've ever come across.
I do hear just a faint hint of clipping but I think most people would never know its there.
It has become an "always-on" pedal on my board.
Actually, yesterday while fiddling with my board I considered mounting it underneath since it's always on.
Leave space for something else, maybe.

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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:19 pm
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The Fulltone OCD can be set pretty clean but with the guitar's volume set to "10", clipping often occurs with heavy picking or chording.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:04 pm
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Right you are Arjay.
The OCD is a great example.
I have one.
There's lots of pedals that can be used as a clean boost but I still hear the distortion.
I mean from the pedal, not the amp.
Another one that was fabled as a wonderful clean boost and also doubled as a really good OD pedal was the Klon Centaur.
Remarkable sounding pedal when used as a clean boost but even with gain all the way off it still added some clip, small though it may be.
Again, I never tried a RangeMaster.
I hear they were pretty good but awfully bright.
Horribly bright, I believe some people said.

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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:24 pm
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A Les Paul (with humbuckers or P90's) *might* need a little HF kick now and then but the last thing a Strat or Tele needs is a treble boost.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:10 pm
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BMW-KTM wrote:
I've personally never met a boost pedal of any kind that is actually truly clean and completely free of clipping.

The one I can think of that I've actually tried is the Keeley Katana. It has only one knob, and when it's pushed in, it's the cleanest boost I can think of, at least up until there's nothing you can do to prevent the amp from clipping.

I've heard that the Moog Moogerfooger and Minifooger Boost pedals can also run clinically clean. Which wouldn't surprise me, given that the entire *fooger series of pedals all can go from absolute zero to more than you need on pretty much all effects. You're supposed to be able to chain them all powered on, and use expression pedals for the effect, and with all of them backed off get a clean signal through the chain. But that would be an expensive chain of pedals just to avoid pops turning them on and off :)


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Post subject: Re: Overdrive Pedals: Simulating or Actually Overdriving
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:23 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
A Les Paul (with humbuckers or P90's) *might* need a little HF kick now and then but the last thing a Strat or Tele needs is a treble boost.

I like the Spaceman Aphelion for single coils, because it's a harmonic boost with emphasis on even-order harmonics, and its tone knob going left strictly limits the highs without boosting the mids or lows at all, which can tame the Tele. If the tone knob is not used, it tends to boost the single coil noise, and I think that may be unavoidable with any analog boost.

Not that anyone hears the single coil noise over 30W of tube amp... :)


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