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Post subject: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:33 pm
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So you'll have to bare with me since this is my first tube amp I've ever owned.

It's a brand new Fender 65' Deluxe Reverb (Reissue), and I mainly bought it because I wanted an amp I could crank up for that natural overdrive sound that comes with tubes.

What's the problem then you say? Well, when I crank this thing up to 10, all I get is nice clean (but super loud) sound, no overdrive sound at all.

The guitar I'm using is a Fender Stratocaster American Elite with the noiseless pickups (not the HSS).

What am I doing wrong here?


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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:36 am
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Start with a bias check. You won't get an "overdrive" sound, but rather some mild breakup.

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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:55 am
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Check if you have the right 12XX7 tubes at the right place
View from the back, from right to left
V1, V2, V4, V5 ; 12AX7
V3, V6 ; 12AT7
V7,V8 ; 6V6

A low gain tube like 12AT7 or 12AU7 or weak 12XX7 tube may be the issue


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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:36 am
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In addition to the suggestions already made you might also want to check the rating on the power tubes. They will be rated and have a number indicating early/mid/late breakup. Perhaps you have some very late breakup tubes! Also, Fender has a reputation for setting the bias very cold in the factory so a combination of a cold bias and late breakup tubes may be the cause of the problem.

When I bought my 65 DRRI 2 years ago, whilst I did get breakup, it was not as early as I was expecting. So when I had some tubes go bad on me I replaced them all. I now prefer Tung Sol 12AX7 or TAD 7025WA in V1 and V2 and either Tung Sol 6V6GT or TAD 6V6GT-STR in the power section. It now breaks up nicely once you get past about 4 on the volume. I have never tried it on 10!

The Tung Sols were installed by a pro and the bias was set at 22mA using the usual 60% of maximum dissipation calculations. However, as recommended by TAD, their tubes are biased at 28mA irrespective of voltage. I know this goes against the grain but I did get confirmation from TAD that I should ignore the voltage and just set the bias to 28mA. Even with a completely different bias, the Tung Sols and TADs sound remarkably similar.

The stock tubes were Groove Tube branded JJ ECC83S in the pre-amp and JJ 6V6S in the power section.

I should add that my DRRI is a limited edition that has a 40w alnico speaker in place of the regular 100w ceramic speaker and I think that may also help it distort sooner.


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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:59 am
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fifty4 wrote:
I should add that my DRRI is a limited edition that has a 40w alnico speaker in place of the regular 100w ceramic speaker and I think that may also help it distort sooner.


This has no effect whatsoever in the amp's predisposition to overdrive and compression. If you had selected a 20-watt speaker, perhaps. But a 40-watt driver has sufficient headroom that any electromotive breakup is highly unlikely unless the amp were dimed and driven hard by outboard effects pedals. The 40-watt alnico is probably an ideal choice for a Deluxe Reverb or re-issue of same.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:16 pm
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fifty4 wrote:
...as recommended by TAD, their tubes are biased at 28mA irrespective of voltage...


Either you misunderstood, or TAD had massive head trauma, causing them to utter stupid statements like that. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:08 am
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shimmilou wrote:
fifty4 wrote:
...as recommended by TAD, their tubes are biased at 28mA irrespective of voltage...


Either you misunderstood, or TAD had massive head trauma, causing them to utter stupid statements like that. :roll:

Rather bold statements. Have you tried the tube in question or are you speaking from a position of ignorance? Did you consider the possibility that you may have misunderstood or made a stupid statement?

Go to the TAD website and look for the Fender 65 Deluxe Reverb tube set. In the description it states that the power tubes should be biased at 28mA. I emailed TAD to check and they confirmed no need to check voltage just use bias probe to set at 28mA. So no, I didn’t misunderstand.

Here is a link that will take you to the page http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Tu ... issue_4155

When I installed the TAD tubes the tubes they replaced were biased at 22mA. I checked. I was expecting a similar reading when I put the TADs in so that I would have to turn the control up (sorry I don’t know the technical term) the same as I would if I wanted to increase the bias on the existing tubes. Not the case. Without touching the control the TADs gave a reading of 32mA so I had to turn the control down to get to 28mA.

The TAD 6V6GT-STR is not an off-the-shelf Chinese tube. It is a special design by TAD so I’m guessing it was intended to operate at 28mA.

I have no association with TAD other than I happen to think they have some very good tubes.


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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:03 am
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Bias milli-amps must alway match with plate voltage ; 28 ma alone do not mean nothing if you want the best bias, best tone and longer tubes life.

28 ma is ok if plate voltage is 350 Volts DC.

Schematic show 394 VDC = 25 ma
Anytime we must read our amp plate voltage. It is a case by case.

If you can't read plate voltage, bias tubes colder if tone is good to your ears.


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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:28 am
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fifty4 wrote:
The TAD 6V6GT-STR is not an off-the-shelf Chinese tube. It is a special design by TAD so I’m guessing it was intended to operate at 28mA.


It sounds like this tube is similar in design and construction to the 6V6S offered by JJ. I believe theirs is built more like a 6L6GC where higher bias current is typically used.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:05 am
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fifty4 wrote:
...Have you tried the tube in question or are you speaking from a position of ignorance? Did you consider the possibility that you may have misunderstood or made a stupid statement?...


Speaking from experience, and I realize that most people are ignorant of tubes, Plate voltage, bias current, and all that jazz, so plenty of morons will run with that stupid statement by TAD and not measure the Plate voltage in any amp, quoting TAD; "they said irregardless of voltage....". :roll: The Plate voltage is essential in the equation of proper tube bias. Yes Virginia, it is science.

And yes, I have used many TAD tubes, and have found that the bias of 28 mA in a DR is too hot (considering approx 400 Plate volts, 23 Ma is much better and can extend the life of the tubes while providing better tone.

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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:18 am
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shimmilou wrote:


Speaking from experience, and I realize that most people are ignorant of tubes, Plate voltage, bias current, and all that jazz, so plenty of morons will run with that stupid statement by TAD and not me .



+1000

Most people on forums know two words ; Filter caps and bias millivolts ( not milliamps) :lol:


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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:02 am
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shimmilou wrote:
fifty4 wrote:
...Have you tried the tube in question or are you speaking from a position of ignorance? Did you consider the possibility that you may have misunderstood or made a stupid statement?...


Speaking from experience, and I realize that most people are ignorant of tubes, Plate voltage, bias current, and all that jazz, so plenty of morons will run with that stupid statement by TAD and not measure the Plate voltage in any amp, quoting TAD; "they said irregardless of voltage....". :roll: The Plate voltage is essential in the equation of proper tube bias. Yes Virginia, it is science.

And yes, I have used many TAD tubes, and have found that the bias of 28 mA in a DR is too hot (considering approx 400 Plate volts, 23 Ma is much better and can extend the life of the tubes while providing better tone.


I began using this forum when I purchased my DRRI a couple of years ago in the expectation, or perhaps I should say hope, that I would be able to learn from others. I am not an amp expert and only contribute when I have personal experience to share. There will of course be times when personal experiences are different and healthy, reasoned debate follows. That is good.

But when a small minded bigot resorts to expressions such as “massive head trauma”, “moron”, and accusing the developers of products of making stupid statements on how to use their own products I have to wonder if that person really knows what they are talking about. Opinions can be given and knowledge shared without resorting to abuse.

Another contributor to this thread accepts that it is just possible that the TAD tube was designed to operate at the higher current yet you cannot concede that this might possibly be the case. And there are some that doggedly agree with you.

There is no doubt that the construction of the TAD is very different from the Tung Sol given that the current was 10mA higher at the same bias control setting. In my experience it does not sound “hot” at 28mA. In fact, as I said in my original post, it sounds the same as the Tung Sols biased at 22mA.

If your reason for using this forum is to rid it of people who do not agree with you then you will no doubt feel you have been successful on this occasion. I do not want to use a forum where superior knowledge comes with a superior attitude. It may be hard to admit, but there will be occasions when you are wrong or someone else holds a different, but equally valid, opinion.


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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:40 am
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I see no profit in a pointless pissing contest and I doubt that anybody's interested in compelling someone to pick up their marbles and go home. In the immortal words of urban philosopher Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?".

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Arjay

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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:21 am
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We have some VERY knowledgable people here and by your own admission you are not an amp guru.

You will be best served if you pay a little more attention to what shimmi says and less attention to how you perceive the mood of it.

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Post subject: Re: No overdrive sound on 65' Deluxe Reverb?
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:53 pm
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fifty4 wrote:
shimmilou wrote:
fifty4 wrote:
...Have you tried the tube in question or are you speaking from a position of ignorance? Did you consider the possibility that you may have misunderstood or made a stupid statement?...


Speaking from experience, and I realize that most people are ignorant of tubes, Plate voltage, bias current, and all that jazz, so plenty of morons will run with that stupid statement by TAD and not measure the Plate voltage in any amp, quoting TAD; "they said irregardless of voltage....". :roll: The Plate voltage is essential in the equation of proper tube bias. Yes Virginia, it is science.

And yes, I have used many TAD tubes, and have found that the bias of 28 mA in a DR is too hot (considering approx 400 Plate volts, 23 Ma is much better and can extend the life of the tubes while providing better tone.


I began using this forum when I purchased my DRRI a couple of years ago in the expectation, or perhaps I should say hope, that I would be able to learn from others. I am not an amp expert and only contribute when I have personal experience to share. There will of course be times when personal experiences are different and healthy, reasoned debate follows. That is good.

But when a small minded bigot resorts to expressions such as “massive head trauma”, “moron”, and accusing the developers of products of making stupid statements on how to use their own products I have to wonder if that person really knows what they are talking about. Opinions can be given and knowledge shared without resorting to abuse.

Another contributor to this thread accepts that it is just possible that the TAD tube was designed to operate at the higher current yet you cannot concede that this might possibly be the case. And there are some that doggedly agree with you.

There is no doubt that the construction of the TAD is very different from the Tung Sol given that the current was 10mA higher at the same bias control setting. In my experience it does not sound “hot” at 28mA. In fact, as I said in my original post, it sounds the same as the Tung Sols biased at 22mA.

If your reason for using this forum is to rid it of people who do not agree with you then you will no doubt feel you have been successful on this occasion. I do not want to use a forum where superior knowledge comes with a superior attitude. It may be hard to admit, but there will be occasions when you are wrong or someone else holds a different, but equally valid, opinion.


My point is to merely emphasize the utter stupidity of the bad advice given about "irregardless of Plate voltage", because I know that this is how stupid internet myths are started. My choice of adjectives seems appropriate given the severity of the stupidity in that statement.

BTW, not attacking you, just attacking the stupid statement from TAD. :wink:

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